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Old Sep 02, 2012, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by kdt View Post
The origional idea of this thread was for a bungee format for a Team Select. With this in mind, do we allow pilots to use their preferred bungee or do we make it a standard size to fit all? My feeling is the medium size would be fine for club events but for a Team Selects we should allow for a higher level of expertise. We were lucky to have Arend throwing for us in SA. He was able to put more tension into our launches then we would have been able to do on our own on a consistent basis. If a two man tow is not an option in a Team Select then the Mega Bungee should be an option for the pilots that want to take this to a higher level.

The launch in F3J is critical and the tactics involved cannot be duplicated with a winch or a bungee. My preference is to continue to use 2 man tows for a Team Select regardless of the difficulty in getting it off the ground

A bungee launch J style format would be a great for club events and I am all for it.
Leep in mind we cant cater to either spectrum of pilot skill and make it fair.

If we allow some guys (or girls) to bring a mega bungee and others who cant pull one or dont have time on that "level" of launch and they are consequently outlaunched then they are defeated by sheer athletic ability.... MAAC would likely not even pass that concept if we presented a TS format like that. F3J was not supposed to be a strong man contest though its looking that way of late.

On the contrary, I am not sure how a matched launch system would degrade or negatively impact a skilled pilot. Its what happens after the throw that sets them apart.

"The launch in F3J is critical and the tactics involved cannot be duplicated with a winch or a bungee."

We cant puplicate it in the same time duration but we can do most of the same things. Pilots can still adopt a short lauch to maximize the window, they cant still stay on for a full launch - they must still manage the power in the launch at the sticks and come off when its at its peak. These are some of the same skills required in a J launch. They will just happen over a longer launch duration and will not require you to hold 70-90 lbs.

If the Bungee is relatively stout its still going to be a significant launch event and all the people who can hold 90 lbs are still going to have pretty much all the experience they have pay off.

In terms of a TS - I am more in favour of a matched system Vs just releasing the hounds to bring whatever they think they can pull. This is supposed to be a skills contest where the best pilot differentiates himself from the field. The same holds true for a MOM style ocntest. I think its one reason people are liking the concept.

I think we (in Canada) have to be prepared to make a concession given our sheer lack of critical mass of volunteers. If it were not for that fact I would be on your side in this - go with 2 man tows for sure but im just not willing to plan an event and gamble on who may or may not show up, who may or may not pull to thier best ability, who might be 110 LBS VS 210...its all random and I would like to move away from random if we have an opportunity to indroduce an alternative.

Today I went out and tried some vartiations in resistance - line length and wind conditions - I added another 75 feet of mono (total was about 150 now) and kept the tension at 50 LBS wich took about 40 paces. I did a few launches then optimized my camber a little - bam I added 50 meters to my launch! The duration was still under 4 seconds and everyone could have done this. Check out the attached log file - you can see the value change - I changed planes later but most of my launches were at this level or even a little higher as the wind picked up to about 6 Kph


if we spread that load out over a longer chunk of rubber and maybe another 75 feet of line we might be closer to 200 meters. Thats ample to work with in my opinion.
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 12:02 PM
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This is an interesting discussion. It is similar to what we discussed in going to winches for the US Team Selection. I think this comes down to a decision about what you are trying to select:
  1. The best pilots on a given set of days
  2. The pilots most likely to do well in a World Level F3J event

This can be quite different. Your goal of an equal launch system that everyone can handle is laudible, but in the end you may pick 3 pilots with no J throwing experience, and perhaps no one on the team that can hold the J lines for competitive launches. That puts the team in a tough position competitively. Those early morning launches really need a strong throw and a good tow team.

There were comments that selecting the US team using winches did not hurt - we had a banner year with 4 of our 5 pilots in the finals and winning the team gold. Whle that is true - look at the pilots that were selected: All but 1 had previous WC experience. All had previous F3J event experience including throwing at high tensions. We had a tow team where every tower had WC experience.

The best team members are not just the best pilots, but are the people that have worked to develop all of the skills necessary to be a world class F3J competitor: throwing, line selection, tow type selection for conditions, tactics, coordination with towers, signals, teamwork etc.

I do worry about the lack of J experience in the US that could affect our competitiveness in future cycles. Maybe it's just the stupid TM in me, but I still think the best training ground and selection process includes being able to run the official event. Only time will tell, but for us I could not imagine that a matched bungee event would evaluate all the skills that neccessary to field a great team.

The winches do a reasonable simulation as you still need to be able to hold good winch tension to be competitive, you still need to manage your lines and the logistics are definitely easier than tow teams. It seems that it would not be unlikely to select a team using bungees that have never even seen a J event since the J skills that others have worked to develop are not measured. That puts a pretty difficult learning curve on that team.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade - just letting you know of some of the my concerns to country competitiveness I have thought about... We like you guys and hope you put a strong team into the next WC.

Jim
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jimsoars View Post
This is an interesting discussion. It is similar to what we discussed in going to winches for the US Team Selection. I think this comes down to a decision about what you are trying to select:
  1. The best pilots on a given set of days
  2. The pilots most likely to do well in a World Level F3J event

This can be quite different. Your goal of an equal launch system that everyone can handle is laudible, but in the end you may pick 3 pilots with no J throwing experience, and perhaps no one on the team that can hold the J lines for competitive launches. That puts the team in a tough position competitively. Those early morning launches really need a strong throw and a good tow team.

There were comments that selecting the US team using winches did not hurt - we had a banner year with 4 of our 5 pilots in the finals and winning the team gold. Whle that is true - look at the pilots that were selected: All but 1 had previous WC experience. All had previous F3J event experience including throwing at high tensions. We had a tow team where every tower had WC experience.

The best team members are not just the best pilots, but are the people that have worked to develop all of the skills necessary to be a world class F3J competitor: throwing, line selection, tow type selection for conditions, tactics, coordination with towers, signals, teamwork etc.

I do worry about the lack of J experience in the US that could affect our competitiveness in future cycles. Maybe it's just the stupid TM in me, but I still think the best training ground and selection process includes being able to run the official event. Only time will tell, but for us I could not imagine that a matched bungee event would evaluate all the skills that neccessary to field a great team.

The winches do a reasonable simulation as you still need to be able to hold good winch tension to be competitive, you still need to manage your lines and the logistics are definitely easier than tow teams. It seems that it would not be unlikely to select a team using bungees that have never even seen a J event since the J skills that others have worked to develop are not measured. That puts a pretty difficult learning curve on that team.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade - just letting you know of some of the my concerns to country competitiveness I have thought about... We like you guys and hope you put a strong team into the next WC.

Jim
"..., but in the end you may pick 3 pilots with no J throwing experience, and perhaps no one on the team that can hold the J lines for competitive launches. That puts the team in a tough position competitively. Those early morning launches really need a strong throw and a good tow team."

Agreed - there is a concession made here that invariably MUST be made up for in team training and specific launch practice after the TS with a 2 man tow. The logistics of a tow team AFTER the TS for practice sessions are farm more acceptable then trying to get 14-16 towers for an 8 man field. So in effect I am saying - we pick the best pilot given a sub "f3J" scenario and ramp them up in the proceding 8 months -

"The best team members are not just the best pilots, but are the people that have worked to develop all of the skills necessary to be a world class F3J competitor: throwing, line selection, tow type selection for conditions, tactics, coordination with towers, signals, teamwork etc."

No argument from me on this - the teams have to be well rounded. The ideal scenario is indeed a two man tow with real J tension and real j throws. I just dont think we can accomodate that level of organization when what we have is a core group of maybe 15? f3J pilots capable of the skill ( and time commitment) in the whole country and only 7-8 are close enough to come to the TS. Its the logistics I am trying to overcome and in that effort we then put a HUGE emphasis on training after the TS - The flip side of sticking to a 2 man tow and accepting the randomness of volunteer towers is that we also dont select the best pilots in all scenarios because invariably some tow teams just dont even come close to others. So you have some launches that are just amazing and some that are bordering on an official protest because you just dont have any power to stay with the field. I was on the recieving end of that in more than 1 TS - it sucks to know you have more skills to show but cant because you got some random weak tows in 3 rounds - you are done - thanks for all the hard work - finished.

"I do worry about the lack of J experience in the US that could affect our competitiveness in future cycles. Maybe it's just the stupid TM in me, but I still think the best training ground and selection process includes being able to run the official event. Only time will tell, but for us I could not imagine that a matched bungee event would evaluate all the skills that neccessary to field a great team."

Again - I totally agree. One main difference is that you have a critical mass of support. Throw that away and tell me how you would do an event if the following were 90 % likely:

1) No gurantee that enough towers will show up - and when they do there is a strong liklihood that some towers are new - not heavy enough and may not even last the day...someone is invariably going to get screwed on the launch and moving people around to the "good towers" is th eonly approach - hopefully they dont wear out...

2) No support for a matched winch approach - no hardware or inadequate hardware - Seriously I would have to purchase the hardware and line if we went this route because no one else is willing to adopt the standard.

I appreciate the input on the thread and I dont take it as raining on the parade etc - its difficult scenario that cant be resolved without a concession or three.

I even considered going whole hog on a matched setup (out of pocket) and then charging for the TS to start to recover the cost...the concept scares me to death - maintaining all the gear - batteries - chargers - adjustments to match them - I already have a career...and then ill be the one everyone blames if ANYTHING goes wrong with the gear...no thanks. Making guys fly 4000 KM with planes and a winch is a cost prohibitive thing - we already have zero eastern pilots at the TS events for logistic reasons among others.

In the end the two extreme risks of either approach are

1) we end up with a team that needs serious training because they have never thrown and launched on J tension...

2) We dont have enough support and we dont have a team!

I am assuming that a very significant portion of our most recent team may not be involved next year - not flying J not organizing the TS - not there. I want the event to happen but we may have an extreme shortage of help.
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 12:56 PM
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Team Selects

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Leep in mind we cant cater to either spectrum of pilot skill and make it fair.

If we allow some guys (or girls) to bring a mega bungee and others who cant pull one or dont have time on that "level" of launch and they are consequently outlaunched then they are defeated by sheer athletic ability.... MAAC would likely not even pass that concept if we presented a TS format like that. F3J was not supposed to be a strong man contest though its looking that way of late.

On the contrary, I am not sure how a matched launch system would degrade or negatively impact a skilled pilot. Its what happens after the throw that sets them apart.

"The launch in F3J is critical and the tactics involved cannot be duplicated with a winch or a bungee."

We cant puplicate it in the same time duration but we can do most of the same things. Pilots can still adopt a short lauch to maximize the window, they cant still stay on for a full launch - they must still manage the power in the launch at the sticks and come off when its at its peak. These are some of the same skills required in a J launch. They will just happen over a longer launch duration and will not require you to hold 70-90 lbs.

If the Bungee is relatively stout its still going to be a significant launch event and all the people who can hold 90 lbs are still going to have pretty much all the experience they have pay off.

In terms of a TS - I am more in favour of a matched system Vs just releasing the hounds to bring whatever they think they can pull. This is supposed to be a skills contest where the best pilot differentiates himself from the field. The same holds true for a MOM style ocntest. I think its one reason people are liking the concept.

I think we (in Canada) have to be prepared to make a concession given our sheer lack of critical mass of volunteers. If it were not for that fact I would be on your side in this - go with 2 man tows for sure but im just not willing to plan an event and gamble on who may or may not show up, who may or may not pull to thier best ability, who might be 110 LBS VS 210...its all random and I would like to move away from random if we have an opportunity to indroduce an alternative.

Today I went out and tried some vartiations in resistance - line length and wind conditions - I added another 75 feet of mono (total was about 150 now) and kept the tension at 50 LBS wich took about 40 paces. I did a few launches then optimized my camber a little - bam I added 50 meters to my launch! The duration was still under 4 seconds and everyone could have done this. Check out the attached log file - you can see the value change - I changed planes later but most of my launches were at this level or even a little higher as the wind picked up to about 6 Kph


if we spread that load out over a longer chunk of rubber and maybe another 75 feet of line we might be closer to 200 meters. Thats ample to work with in my opinion.
David, as you know from our private conversations I am an advocate of a bungee F3J style contest. My hesitation on fully jumping in on using it for an F3J Team Selects are for many reasons which I have listed a couple below. My view of this is flexible and my motivation on posting my shortcomings here are to get feed back from the soaring community so a dialog can start.

Using any format other than what is used in a World Championship F3J contest will not prove up the skill set needed by any of the participating pilots.

We have been successful in the past in getting our team selects done with 2 man tows even though we have had many issues. I have been on the short end of many sub optimal tows due to lack of experience and variable horse power of our towers. A more level field would be achieved with a bungee setup but the skill set of potential towers will not be found in a bungee format competition.

When we did our Team Selects for France I had never done a 2 man tow before our contest began. It was a useful skill to learn before a World Championship The yearly experience of most European F3J competitors is accomplished through as many as six major competitions. In Canada we get one Team Select along with whatever TD contest we can find in the Pacific NW. Not exactly the environment where we can learn World Class level skill sets . If we adopt a bungee Team Selects it will be a big eye opener to a pilot that has made the team with no 2 man tow experience.

Medium bungees pulled to a medium tension will favor the lightest of models of which your average of club flyers do not own. My question on allowing the use of a mega bungee was not to unleash the hounds with a horse power quest but to question what strength of bungee do we allow and where do we set the limit on how far these setups are tensioned.

As I noted before I am all for a bungee setup for expanding the flying and landing skill set. Shorter tows and less horse power launches not only focus more on flying skill at low levels but will ensure that landing points will contribute more to the final score. This will be an advantage to those that spend most of their practice time to landing skills.

Lots to think about when proposing a change of this nature to a Team Select. Not so much for a format that is designed to live on its own.

Open mind
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 01:21 PM
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The reality is you have multiple problems - the first is lack of participation/enthusiasm. We have the same distance problem as you - and it makes it difficult. I have attempted to cultivate interest in J by encouraging clubs to run some J-like events. Running events with regular TD winches really helped get people used to J format and the fun of the event. I provided matrix generation and scoring progams as dis some others in the community. This greatly expanded our pool of talented pilots. More importantly it increased the enthusiasm for J. People began to plan for a long trip to play J. F3J in the Rockies, F3J in the Desert, F3J at the Nats became attainable, fun destinations. It has been a long road to get this level of participation - we had 50+ attend your selection event in Florida. It starts at the local level with someone to encourage it. This is the development phase. It's not easy - but it can work.

The second issue is primarily about logistics. Perhaps a better mechanism is to use TD winches. Many TD pilots have TD winches or know someone they can borrow from. We have 6 club winches that we allowed visitors to use during the event. You might get local club members to allow their TD winches to be used for a TS event. You probably want to limit the mono to 150M, but this expands the pool of pilots that have usable equipment. TD winches are usually more powerful than B winches - but if everyone uses TD winches that is not an issue. I suggest that you require folks to bring their own line if they are borrowing local equipment as then line issues are pilot problems. You deal with equipment failures like any mom TD contest - call the group down and refly. With this launching you still see the benefits of strong tensions, you have reasonably similar launch profiles and no impact from tow team devesity.

Just some ideas for you...
Jim
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 03:03 PM
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David, as you know from our private conversations I am an advocate of a bungee F3J style contest. My hesitation on fully jumping in on using it for an F3J Team Selects are for many reasons which I have listed a couple below. My view of this is flexible and my motivation on posting my shortcomings here are to get feed back from the soaring community so a dialog can start.

Using any format other than what is used in a World Championship F3J contest will not prove up the skill set needed by any of the participating pilots.

We have been successful in the past in getting our team selects done with 2 man tows even though we have had many issues. I have been on the short end of many sub optimal tows due to lack of experience and variable horse power of our towers. A more level field would be achieved with a bungee setup but the skill set of potential towers will not be found in a bungee format competition.

When we did our Team Selects for France I had never done a 2 man tow before our contest began. It was a useful skill to learn before a World Championship The yearly experience of most European F3J competitors is accomplished through as many as six major competitions. In Canada we get one Team Select along with whatever TD contest we can find in the Pacific NW. Not exactly the environment where we can learn World Class level skill sets . If we adopt a bungee Team Selects it will be a big eye opener to a pilot that has made the team with no 2 man tow experience.

Medium bungees pulled to a medium tension will favor the lightest of models of which your average of club flyers do not own. My question on allowing the use of a mega bungee was not to unleash the hounds with a horse power quest but to question what strength of bungee do we allow and where do we set the limit on how far these setups are tensioned.

As I noted before I am all for a bungee setup for expanding the flying and landing skill set. Shorter tows and less horse power launches not only focus more on flying skill at low levels but will ensure that landing points will contribute more to the final score. This will be an advantage to those that spend most of their practice time to landing skills.

Lots to think about when proposing a change of this nature to a Team Select. Not so much for a format that is designed to live on its own.

Open mind
Thats the value of this forum, we are gaining perspectives and sharing thoughts - I like what I see even if most of it is challenging my concepts of the TS event or a non TS MOM event -


"We have been successful in the past in getting our team selects done with 2 man tows even though we have had many issues. I have been on the short end of many sub optimal tows due to lack of experience and variable horse power of our towers. A more level field would be achieved with a bungee setup but the skill set of potential towers will not be found in a bungee format competition."


Interesting perspective but I don't see tower selection as a criteria for choosing launch systems at a TS - We can find and train two or more towers without an issue. It getting 14+ to show up that causes problems. We would have taken Kelly J if we were faster on the draw and had more options for towers in the US - no need to force a tow solution just to find 2 or 3 guys who can tow. That part is easier.

"Using any format other than what is used in a World Championship F3J contest will not prove up the skill set needed by any of the participating pilots. "

Granted - but mandating 2 man tows and having to just accept random power or lack there of does not exactly highlight the best man on the field either. In a perfect world we would have all the power and help we need, pilots would have J experience as they do in Eu and may the best man win would be all we would have to say. Thats just not the case and some concessions are in order if the events are going to go over smoothly.

I think if we could find a reasonably stout - fast launch without requiring 80-90 lbs we would be in good shape.

In that note I have 50 feet of new rubber on order - Stand by for some new graphs maybe next week.
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 03:07 PM
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The reality is you have multiple problems - the first is lack of participation/enthusiasm. We have the same distance problem as you - and it makes it difficult. I have attempted to cultivate interest in J by encouraging clubs to run some J-like events. Running events with regular TD winches really helped get people used to J format and the fun of the event. I provided matrix generation and scoring progams as dis some others in the community. This greatly expanded our pool of talented pilots. More importantly it increased the enthusiasm for J. People began to plan for a long trip to play J. F3J in the Rockies, F3J in the Desert, F3J at the Nats became attainable, fun destinations. It has been a long road to get this level of participation - we had 50+ attend your selection event in Florida. It starts at the local level with someone to encourage it. This is the development phase. It's not easy - but it can work.

The second issue is primarily about logistics. Perhaps a better mechanism is to use TD winches. Many TD pilots have TD winches or know someone they can borrow from. We have 6 club winches that we allowed visitors to use during the event. You might get local club members to allow their TD winches to be used for a TS event. You probably want to limit the mono to 150M, but this expands the pool of pilots that have usable equipment. TD winches are usually more powerful than B winches - but if everyone uses TD winches that is not an issue. I suggest that you require folks to bring their own line if they are borrowing local equipment as then line issues are pilot problems. You deal with equipment failures like any mom TD contest - call the group down and refly. With this launching you still see the benefits of strong tensions, you have reasonably similar launch profiles and no impact from tow team devesity.

Just some ideas for you...
Jim
So how do you limit the scenarios where some guy brings a really powerful TD winch and is crushing the field with sheer power? You just have him use less line to come into a general level launch height? What about battery power - do you limit the cranking power ?

Im up or this approach but I think we would see a reduction in attendance and its already very very low.
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 03:30 PM
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So how do you limit the scenarios where some guy brings a really powerful TD winch and is crushing the field with sheer power? You just have him use less line to come into a general level launch height? What about battery power - do you limit the cranking power ?

Im up or this approach but I think we would see a reduction in attendance and its already very very low.
Why don't you just get 2 good & legal F3B winches on each starting place? That should not be too difficult....

If you are worried about winch giving better zoom than F3J tow, then shorten the distance to turn arounds a litte. Say 125 meters and 1.5mm line, and you should be ok.
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 03:33 PM
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The reality is you have multiple problems - the first is lack of participation/enthusiasm. We have the same distance problem as you - and it makes it difficult. I have attempted to cultivate interest in J by encouraging clubs to run some J-like events. Running events with regular TD winches really helped get people used to J format and the fun of the event. I provided matrix generation and scoring progams as dis some others in the community. This greatly expanded our pool of talented pilots. More importantly it increased the enthusiasm for J. People began to plan for a long trip to play J. F3J in the Rockies, F3J in the Desert, F3J at the Nats became attainable, fun destinations. It has been a long road to get this level of participation - we had 50+ attend your selection event in Florida. It starts at the local level with someone to encourage it. This is the development phase. It's not easy - but it can work.

The second issue is primarily about logistics. Perhaps a better mechanism is to use TD winches. Many TD pilots have TD winches or know someone they can borrow from. We have 6 club winches that we allowed visitors to use during the event. You might get local club members to allow their TD winches to be used for a TS event. You probably want to limit the mono to 150M, but this expands the pool of pilots that have usable equipment. TD winches are usually more powerful than B winches - but if everyone uses TD winches that is not an issue. I suggest that you require folks to bring their own line if they are borrowing local equipment as then line issues are pilot problems. You deal with equipment failures like any mom TD contest - call the group down and refly. With this launching you still see the benefits of strong tensions, you have reasonably similar launch profiles and no impact from tow team devesity.

Just some ideas for you...
Jim

The winch setup at Phoenix worked well using F3b winches. I liked this format but the complexity is still a problem. Also, A Ford long shaft running 150m of mono will out launch an Ober. I feel matched winches would be needed for a Team Selects. The bungee idea is a great one from a standardization point of view. The problem from my perspective is the tension would need to serve the lowest common denominator (low tension). Medium bungees would be great as a contest equalizer but not the best way to simulate a WC situation.

The Seattle Area Soaring Society matched winches are great even running braided line. It sounds like they are also having great success with their Death Match bungee contests. I would like to check these out. Great way to do some challenging low level flying and fly similar air man on man. Are they using a heavier tubing than 2x 4 meter parallel? Can anyone comment on the type of tubing and length? What kind of tension does the launch corridor offer?


Thanks for your comments Jim! Hope to see a lot more!
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 03:55 PM
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Thats the value of this forum, we are gaining perspectives and sharing thoughts - I like what I see even if most of it is challenging my concepts of the TS event or a non TS MOM event -


"We have been successful in the past in getting our team selects done with 2 man tows even though we have had many issues. I have been on the short end of many sub optimal tows due to lack of experience and variable horse power of our towers. A more level field would be achieved with a bungee setup but the skill set of potential towers will not be found in a bungee format competition."


Interesting perspective but I don't see tower selection as a criteria for choosing launch systems at a TS - We can find and train two or more towers without an issue. It getting 14+ to show up that causes problems. We would have taken Kelly J if we were faster on the draw and had more options for towers in the US - no need to force a tow solution just to find 2 or 3 guys who can tow. That part is easier.

"Using any format other than what is used in a World Championship F3J contest will not prove up the skill set needed by any of the participating pilots. "

Granted - but mandating 2 man tows and having to just accept random power or lack there of does not exactly highlight the best man on the field either. In a perfect world we would have all the power and help we need, pilots would have J experience as they do in Eu and may the best man win would be all we would have to say. Thats just not the case and some concessions are in order if the events are going to go over smoothly.

I think if we could find a reasonably stout - fast launch without requiring 80-90 lbs we would be in good shape.

In that note I have 50 feet of new rubber on order - Stand by for some new graphs maybe next week.
You have not addressed the issues of the use of an uttra light model with a medium launch power or the slanting of the low tow height launch to the advantage of those that are better in the landing circle?

I know my greatest weakness is in landing. This format would hone my landing skills for sure. Im not sure I would like to add this weakness of mine an advantage of your strength in a Team Select

Not every club member out there has an unobtainium X2 @ 56oz...


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Old Sep 03, 2012, 04:06 PM
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The winch setup at Phoenix worked well using F3b winches. I liked this format but the complexity is still a problem. Also, A Ford long shaft running 150m of mono will out launch an Ober. I feel matched winches would be needed for a Team Selects. The bungee idea is a great one from a standardization point of view. The problem from my perspective is the tension would need to serve the lowest common denominator (low tension). Medium bungees would be great as a contest equalizer but not the best way to simulate a WC situation.

The Seattle Area Soaring Society matched winches are great even running braided line. It sounds like they are also having great success with their Death Match bungee contests. I would like to check these out. Great way to do some challenging low level flying and fly similar air man on man. Are they using a heavier tubing than 2x 4 meter parallel? Can anyone comment on the type of tubing and length? What kind of tension does the launch corridor offer?


Thanks for your comments Jim! Hope to see a lot more!


Re deathmatch at SASS - I flew that death match event once - so much fun! In fact its that exposure that got me to think more seriously about the solution we are considering. They are using rubber closer to the mega spec and im not sure of the length - getting a lower launch and pilots are typically throwing and going straingt into the zoom in order to use the rather short power duration I dont think they are even at 30 lbs - maybe Brian Keefe could comment a little here - ill nudge him.

However the matched winches approach still have a lot of complexity and I am not a fan of the low speed on the line - these winches are not even that old and they are starting to show random challenges like all mechanics - getting to this state would require some 15+K in funds - ready for a donation anyone ?

on the stretch side of the debate - If the stretch corridor was wide enough while still being safe I think would could accomodate more than the weakest arm on the field - keep in mind the pounds jump up really fast at a certain point in any bungee - if the start of the box is 45 LB and the back is 15 more paces Thats a LOT more potential pull of the rubber is in the higher end of the elongation curve. - If its available for everyone then thats fair - no one HAS to launch thier own plane so someone can throw for you if you need it...So guys who want to throw with huge tension can option fpor more - not 90 lbs but more - and its a level option for everyone.

Keith you are right, bungees cant simulate a WC scenario but neither can volunteer towers. At a WC the towers are trained, ready - most are in shape for the task and know the scenario - thats just not the deal in our TS world. We make compromises for all of these scenarios - volunteer towers - winches - Bungees - none of them would be perfect -

If it was not such a detriment to attendance I would propose we all supply our own tow teams but that would only further the gap between attending F3J pilots and the rest of the soaring community in Canada...I want to go the other way...bring in more pilots.

Jim your work within the F3J promotion has been really excellent and I know I have told you this in person, it takes a huge long term commitment and we are all open to your ideas. Thanks for taking part in this dialogue.
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuomo View Post
Why don't you just get 2 good & legal F3B winches on each starting place? That should not be too difficult....

If you are worried about winch giving better zoom than F3J tow, then shorten the distance to turn arounds a litte. Say 125 meters and 1.5mm line, and you should be ok.
Unfortunately, no one flies F3B here in any kind of numbers - I entertained this last year and it looked like I was in for at least 4 K in expenses - maybe we would be able to find antoehr 2 maybe 3 in western Canada and the rest would need to be borrowed from ? the states and shipped here -
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kdt View Post
The Seattle Area Soaring Society matched winches are great even running braided line. It sounds like they are also having great success with their Death Match bungee contests. I would like to check these out. Great way to do some challenging low level flying and fly similar air man on man. Are they using a heavier tubing than 2x 4 meter parallel? Can anyone comment on the type of tubing and length? What kind of tension does the launch !
We (SASS) are using the Aerofoam 1/2" zip start 24' of rubber. The tension is set by each zip is the same length and you are allowed to pull back to a set line. In theory all tension should be pretty equal. I know there is some variation due to rubber wear and tolerance but it's so freaking close.

I've been using a 3m hight start doubled and it has about the same pull for a little longer time but the big difference is the weight of the rubber that the glider has to lift.

Like I mentioned earlier I had a 5/8" zip start and it pulled hard and quick. Launches were higher but way more strain on arms, shoulder and plane.

Jeremy
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by webbsolution View Post

Keith you are right, bungees cant simulate a WC scenario but neither can volunteer towers. At a WC the towers are trained, ready - most are in shape for the task and know the scenario - thats just not the deal in our TS world. We make compromises for all of these scenarios - volunteer towers - winches - Bungees - none of them would be perfect -

.
A bad 2 man tow is better than a good medium bungee

You have not addressed the issues of the use of an uttra light model with a medium launch power or the slanting of the low tow height launch to the advantage of those that are better in the landing circle?

I know my greatest weakness is in landing. This format would hone my landing skills for sure. Im not sure I would like to add this weakness of mine an advantage of your strength in a Team Select

Not every club member out there has an unobtainium X2 @ 56oz...

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Old Sep 03, 2012, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by kdt View Post
A bad 2 man tow is better than a good medium bungee

You have not addressed the issues of the use of an uttra light model with a medium launch power or the slanting of the low tow height launch to the advantage of those that are better in the landing circle?

I know my greatest weakness is in landing. This format would hone my landing skills for sure. Im not sure I would like to add this weakness of mine an advantage of your strength in a Team Select

Not every club member out there has an unobtainium X2 @ 56oz...

There are levels of bad I want to stay away from lol

On the second topic - I dont understand - I think guys are going to fly what will works for the conditions regardless of the launch within reason- if its windy and you need to penetrate - you fly heavy - the speed on launch factor is out the window just like SA during the 10 m/sec rounds - no one cared how long you were on tow for - we just wanted to get back home. Granted if we have really LOW powered launches with a bungee the lighter planes are going to move faster...but I dont think anyone is going to win based on this alone especially if the bungee is on the stronger side.

In response to lite planes - thats why I want to make sure the solution is powerful enough for ALL planes even the 77 oz varieties that could show up - for example my X2 3.5 ballasted with 21 oz outlaunches my 56 oz 3.8 in pure zoom and alt - - it takes more time but even the system I have now will afford 150 meters and we have not really even started testing. lite planes are always going to have an advantage in some scenarios but I dont see a slanted relationship to the LZ - I mean if you can nail the spot but you cant make your time - its not going to matter - a low launch is not going to make the 100 point landing worth any more unless no one else makes a landing...now an uber high launch across the whole field could in effect make it a landing contest...but I dont anticipate that.

I have seen 3 team selects so far - lite planes were a major factor because the launch power was inconsistent - a lite plane was able to do more with less - I d like to get away from that with a more level approach of adequate power - if the power is there to launch everyone to 200 meters and the main difference is time on line - well thats the essence of J again and its what we will be facing in the WC so thats fine. Or am I misunderstanding you ?
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