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Old Jan 01, 2013, 01:00 AM
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Tim,
Too beautiful. Too beautiful.
Raging with envy at your capability and use of this level of modelling technology...
Happy New Year!
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Old Jan 01, 2013, 07:03 AM
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Beautiful!

Awesome, actually.

I think you have a plan for these as well -
like the one you posted here for the smaller ones?

Are you willing to sell them also?
What price?
I´m very interested.
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Old Jan 03, 2013, 12:50 AM
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Dan, thanks for the nice words.

Hi Disabled

Yes, I have plans. The larger guns are for a possible project down the road and will likely do several other naval guns as well. If I was to sell anything, I would only sell them as a master pattern for you to mold and cast the guns you need yourself. I learned in the "tank world" that making parts for other people can easily become a time and money consuming hobby in itself and takes away some of the enjoyment I get from working on my own projects. Having a few parts made in the scale you require wouldn't be too much trouble once I have the parts drawn up. Wouldn't know cost until I have the 3D files completed. I'll be designing the final ones slightly different, with molding in mind so they will be more like a kit to assemble. (carriages for example). To be a little more cost effective, I will mold and cast the quantity of guns I will need for the frigate. You could also just do the gun barrels and I could supply dimensioned drawings for the carriages if you wanted to make your own. Just thinking out loud.

First, I need to make some more progress on the brig.

kind regards
Tim
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 07:13 AM
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Thanks for the offer, Tim!

As you may have noticed so far I went a different way regarding the cannons.

There are several 1/16 kits of cannons from companies like KRICK,
MANTUA, AMATI, ARTESANIA LATINA and others.
There are also cannons of different centuries and nations available,
again those informations are NOT of the most relyable kind...
Some of the stuff I found (still) doesn´t make sense to me.

But there is also a single 1/17 (?) model from KRICK of a 24-pounder of an american coastal cannon dated between 1780-1812...and I still have no idea, why this should be 1/17 and not 1/16 scale too...
wouldn´t make a difference in the end. Why the hell did they produce it for 1/17 and not for 1/16 scale like all the others are?
Correction:
I just found an older catalogue from Artesania Latina saying ALL their modelcannons are 1/17...
Weird.

Anyway - what I did for quite some time now was to look around on Ebay.at,
Ebay.de, Ebay.com and other sources for all kinds of available used and new model cannons,
model gunbarrels, cannon kits and so forth.
I even found a real black powder model cannon kit for firing 0.44 round balls -
$ 299.00. Auction is still running. Nice, but too expensive for my needs.

And of course I also wanted to take care of my wallet.
Means, I have enough time and looked out for the best offers.
Some auctions are still running...
(I hope nobody of this forum comes in between )

Basically I just wanted to know, what is allready there -
as I simply wanted good masters and take silicone moulds from them,
to cast the number of cannons needed - in an as-cheap-as-possible way.

Styles are very different, lengths of gun barrels too -
and again, lots of informations regarding these kits are not really relyable...

I still haven´t decided how much care I should really take for historical correct detailing...
What I really looked for from the beginning where two sizes of cannonbarrels which could possibly come from one foundry - smaller size about 12.0 -12.5 cm, the bigger ones about 14.5-15.0 cm.
You know - really 17th century style and identical proportions for both barrel sizes. Didn´t find any...

Maybe this week or next
I finally will be able to show you all gun barrels I actually have bought.
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 11:28 AM
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Hi Disabled. Quite the collection you have amassed.

More boring drawings. Just for fun, a comparison of the three. Hope to have some good progress on Scorpion's hull this week to show.

Guns for a typical 38 gun, Fifth Rate frigate (Heavy Frigate).

Compliment of guns

Upper Deck: 28 × 18-pounder guns
Quarter Deck: 2 × 9-pounder guns + 12 × 32-pounder carronades (later ships had 14 of these carronades and no 9-pounders)
Forecastle: 2 × 9-pounder guns + 2 × 32-pounder carronades

A comparison of the three barrels


Tim
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 03:04 AM
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Not boring - these are fantastic!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBowman View Post
Hi Disabled. Quite the collection you have amassed.

More boring drawings. Just for fun, a comparison of the three. Hope to have some good progress on Scorpion's hull this week to show.

Guns for a typical 38 gun, Fifth Rate frigate (Heavy Frigate).

Compliment of guns

Upper Deck: 28 × 18-pounder guns
Quarter Deck: 2 × 9-pounder guns + 12 × 32-pounder carronades (later ships had 14 of these carronades and no 9-pounders)
Forecastle: 2 × 9-pounder guns + 2 × 32-pounder carronades

A comparison of the three barrels


Tim
Now we need to look at the actual lengths of these barrels at 1/1 scale:
How long are the 18-pounder barrels?
How long the 9-pounders?
How long the carronades?
(And you know they didn´t have carronades in 1630-1660)

9-pounders and - especially - the long 18-pounders had a far bigger firing distance than the carronades, which where especially designed for short firing range.
The gun carriage for a carronade is also quite different than regular gun carriages.
And of course the space you need inboard to load, fire and handle the different cannons in general is very different.

As a simplyfied formula I would say a cannonbarrel must not be longer than 1/5th of the ships width. Can you agree to that?

This is also the reason why the earlier (smaller) frigates had much less tumblehome (the inboard curve of the shipsides) than the later ( much bigger) frigates of the 18th or 19th century.
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 05:20 AM
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disabled instead of hijacking this thread for a discussion on completely unrelated ships / cannon / time frame why not discuss it in your thread where the relation to the thema is a given
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatbomber View Post
disabled instead of hijacking this thread for a discussion on completely unrelated ships / cannon / time frame why not discuss it in your thread where the relation to the thema is a given
@ Meatbomber

What is wrong with you?

I was in the middle of a friendly discussion about cannons with Tim Bowman.

You are criticising me for the second time in public for no reason.
(You could have done that with a PN to me as well. But as you are attacking me in public, I have to fight back in public as well. And in the end you have hijacked this thread with your critizism - not me with chatting with Tim about different kinds of cannons and their necessary space requirements on ships...)

Please leave me alone and do your own stuff.
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 10:38 AM
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Hi guys

Meatbomber, No problem talking about cannons here since that seems to be all I'm posting at the moment. You are right, I don't think these gun patterns would look the part on a ship from an earlier time.

disabled, I think your ships earlier gun patterns would be different from the ones I have drawn. Your also right, you wouldn't have carronades. I was only posting what my next project (hopefully) will have as it's armaments. These guns are roughly from 1790-1815 as this is the period my ships will all be from.

Interesting observation on the recoil. It doesn't seem like much room on those old ships.

as for the gun lengths of these?

18 pounder barrel is 8 feet (243.84cm)
9 pounder 7 feet 6 inches (228.60cm)
32 pound carronade is 5 feet 4inches (163.37cm)

So far, mine are all 1:24 scale versions of these British guns.

Kind regards
Tim
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBowman View Post
Hi guys

You are right, I don't think these gun patterns would look the part on a ship from an earlier time.

Interesting observation on the recoil. It doesn't seem like much room on those old ships.

Kind regards
Tim
I agree.
Thanks for these informations, Tim.
I simply needed those informations for comparison purposes with my time period. More in my own thread. Cheers
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 02:52 PM
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Hi all

Bolsters and stern transom attached. Now the fun begins with cleaning everything up.

I'm happy with the stern. It really finishes the ship off bow-stern. I still have to make the detail that comes down the wale from the bottom of the side pieces and then blend and clean up. For now, I only drilled the pilot holes for the hawse pipes. Not sure if I'll wait until the bulwarks are in to drill them to size or before.













The recessed letters on the stern are for simple alignment for the raised lettering. this way I can paint them and attached them easily.


Even had my little helper who wanted to work on it with me. : )


Tim
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 07:25 PM
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lovely lovely...........
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 03:08 PM
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Hi Yancovitch....thank you

Spent some time on the hull yesterday and also working on the rudder. Unfortunately, I realized I was using the brig Irene's positioning for the hinges instead of the Cruizer planes (dummy moment) and dove in so fast, I had them all on the hull before I realized it. ARGH Now faced with ripping them off and redoing them of leaving them and living with it as is. Might be one of those things that bugs me and nags at me later on. in the mean time, I drew a new rudder(also with the hinges in the wrong spot) just to get the concept on the computer. these hinges are easy to move as compared to those on the hull.



On the hull, I spent some time working on the detail, stern trim pieces that go on both sides and got a headache from the multi-directional curves going on inorder to get it to fit cleanly. So stepped away from that for a moment and worked on the bow. Blended the rails and bolsters, bonded the catheads on and started some clean up. Once I had that done, I just had to get the deck on and see it with guns. this was good because I cand take some other measurements for things while the deck is in. more room at the stern then I thought there would be...even with the chasers.

















Tim
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 05:21 AM
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Tim,
Looking great.
I don't think you have to worry about the rudder hinges. Over the decades that the cruizer design was built, my guess is that nearly every one was slightly to greatly different. You likely could find various plans showing different hinge patterns, but even then, the as-built was probably different.
If you haven't read Six Frigates, it explains how a single design for the first US frigates ended up in many different builds depending on shipbuilder, shipyard, materials available, etc.
Your build is over the top excellent - I'm sure your hinges can be assumed to be a highly probable "as-built" configuration. Don't worry - be happy...
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 11:16 AM
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Thanks Dan

Needed that.

Tim
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