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Old Dec 13, 2012, 04:36 PM
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meatbomber's Avatar
Klatovy, Czech Republic
Joined Mar 2004
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and i was wrong too, Petrejus shows up hinged ports in his plans clearly.

So so there i am with my foot in my mouth
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 04:40 PM
Pond Sailer's Avatar
United States, CA, Castro Valley
Joined Mar 2012
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Oh sure. If you have danger approaching you will come up with all kinds of little tricks to put that bugger into Davy Jones Locker. The helmsman would be more than happy to do a little jig around his buddies to get er done.

Now about that road trip. Sounds great. I am in. I am still scouting for a appropriate seaway for just that. If we all have chase boats then i am thinking something like lake Deval in Livermore hills. Five miles long and the winds blow all the way down that lake most days. Then we can tow them back for another run. Grin. I'll find a link.

Here is a listing of the lakes around here, I am sure that Tim knows of more in his area.
http://www.ebparks.org/activities/bo...iling#delvalle

G
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 04:53 PM
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TBowman's Avatar
United States, CA, San Jose
Joined Aug 2012
421 Posts
Hi Meatbomber

No foot in mouth. One thing I am not sure about is on the original design plans for the Cruizer, it shows the two structures on the stern, port and starboard side. One is maybe an officers head and the other possibly storage?. Without my deck mounted, I do not know how much space there will be. Dan's photos are very helpful(as always) to help visualize what space I have to work with. I won't decide for sure about the two structures until I am at that stage of the build.

One of my favorite things about these ships during this period are the hinged gunport doors(especially on a frigate). oooo they look so good when opened up for battle! So I wanted to at least have the two stern ports with doors. A few paintings I have seen with Cruizer brigs in them do show open ports(no doors) at the stern but with over 100 built, maybe one had a modification done per Commander's orders and maybe that one was Scorpion. : ) Will likely only do a single line to open the doors with as on the Irene model and as Dan has done.

The other detail I do not know if I will add or not are the two rests for the mizzen's boom on port and starboard. These look like extensions of the side pieces and from what I could find were on earlier Cruiser class brigs, later ones had a single rest at center position.

It is a lot harder finding detail information on these ships then a Tiger tank...that's for sure!!

I'll get it into 3D next, once I pick the style of detailing. Also, getting ahead of myself on overall color scheme. Maybe add some blue into the hull?? Will think about this more later on.

a few more quick studies


Thanks for the input and help.
Tim

ps, count me in for that group sail!
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 09:26 PM
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United States, CA, San Jose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanL View Post
if some HMS something-or-other were gaining on my stern, I'd be moving a gun into place to keep them at bay.
Hi Dan

I just hope it's not HMS This you see off your stern!


Tim
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 09:37 PM
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United States, MN, Brainerd
Joined Oct 2004
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I've seen paintings, models and ref's on Syren that seem to indicate that the two stern galleries were in the original plans, but MAY NOT have been added when built. Or they may have been stripped when she sat in ordinary in 1806/07.
One reference pointed out that those would typically have been officers heads/storage, but on a brig this size these galleries would very unlikely be added for lack of clearance. Another ref pointed out that the galleries may have been fake to give the impression, at a distance, of a larger, more dangerous vessel.
Also, as built, the Syren fore bulwarks were likely low. The raised ones I added were supposedly added during refit. Who knows???
From all I've read, captains could and would outfit, modify, rig and arm their vessels pretty much as they saw fit. And builders would modify plans and even then build differently.
So you have a lot of leeway with Scorpion....

Off my stern....gulp!
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 11:01 PM
Pond Sailer's Avatar
United States, CA, Castro Valley
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Plus let's not forget that the men back then were a lot shorter than now. when you go into museums and such and look at armor and uniforms you get a different picture on the size of these hard working men.

I have maybe 7 dvds of tall ship movies and one of them had your ship in a staring roll. I think I remember seeing two cannons in the Captains area. say the word and ill pop them into dvd player and find the movie and capture a few feet of film for you to see. These old movies used our ships a lot. Damn the Defiant stars a ship just like Surprise, right down to the small details. I will refer back to it later to make small changes one day. The ship is in about half the movie and is a great story to boot.

Tim, if I saw that image in my rear view mirror I would hate it if the mirror said Images May Actually Appear Smaller Than They Really Are. I would have men poring soap in front of the bow to help reduce drag on the hull to try and get more speed to help run away. to hell with two guns in the back. just how much more speed could I get tossing them all over board. grin
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 12:07 PM
SCALE Sailor
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United States, MD, Severna Park
Joined Apr 2008
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Where does this nonsense of people being a "lot shorter then" come from?
Most of what you see in museums are the leftovers that didn't get issued or used and therefore survived. Of maybe short people just make all the trouble in the world?
Donald Thomas Cochrane who captured a frigate with a little 12 gun brig (the basis for the first Aubrey book) was over 6 feet tall. George Washington was 6 foot or more. The "average" height of white males may have been an inch or two below today's average - but they weren't Munchkins.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 09:57 PM
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United States, CA, San Jose
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Hi all

I'm getting hung up on the stern so not much "hands-on" modeling happening. Have roughed the bolsters shapes for positioning and the middle rail will be trimmed and blended into them when complete. Once I had the rudder hinges completed, I couldn't resist painting the entire hull in grey. : )









To help with the stern decision making, I did a quick color-up in Photoshop. The final design will have about this much of trim and minimal carving details.


happy building
Tim
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryTodd View Post
Where does this nonsense of people being a "lot shorter then" come from?
Most of what you see in museums are the leftovers that didn't get issued or used and therefore survived. Of maybe short people just make all the trouble in the world?
Donald Thomas Cochrane who captured a frigate with a little 12 gun brig (the basis for the first Aubrey book) was over 6 feet tall. George Washington was 6 foot or more. The "average" height of white males may have been an inch or two below today's average - but they weren't Munchkins.
Dear Jerry,
not necessarily nonsense, as I also have found this information in several sources.
Especially during the 16th and 17th Century the average height of white males and females
(donīt exclude them please) has been about 4 inches less than todays average!

160 - 165 cm compared to 170 - 175 cm today - average heigth!
Main reason for that was bad food - compared to today.
But as I myself am 180 cm high, I fully understand what you mean.

I also remember myself walking - or should I say crowling/robbing on my knees -
through the battery decks of the real HMS Victory at Portsmouth in 1992!
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 09:10 AM
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United States, MN, Brainerd
Joined Oct 2004
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Tim,
Again, beautiful work.
A question, please. A while back I was looking into printing methods for Supplex
(the DuPont nylon that SC&H uses) that would put raised detail on the sails. Kind of like 3D printing on fabric. Idea was to have bolt ropes, seams, panels, grommets, etc etc printed on with enough of a third dimension that sewing, etc wouldn't be needed.
At this scale, seams and many sail details are very small. Sewing and just can't duplicate the subtle effect of the seams/sewn detail.
I know it's far ahead yet in your build, but looking fwd to how you address sails.
Best regards.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:24 AM
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here we go again ...i thought i'd take the opportunity to add something that i may have discovered....now this is only in my case, as i had bleached the sails and maybe caused the material to be more flexible, as i noticed that the puckering was more noticeable in damp weather and less in dry...dan or someone suggested to stretch out the wrinkles which i think would work, but for the fact that i had already sewn the hems and locked the threads at each end ...so....it could be helpful to leave the ends open at each end of the stitches, and after they're completed, stretch the fabric so the stitching can loosen somewhat...even after washing it....like stretch and iron and stretch again.....then make the hems and lock in the stitching....now this make sound nonsensical, or useless, or ineffective, but i didn't think it would hurt to mention......thanks..........vic
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:47 AM
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United States, CA, San Jose
Joined Aug 2012
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Hi Dan and Vic

I have thought about the sails but no more then that. Getting something like that to look and act "scale" is difficult. The Supplex material Phillip printed the sails on is an excellent material for us.

Dan, there are some ways to print 3D onto textiles but I'm not sure they would give a convincing effect you are describing. I was hoping to have a few extra sails made with a few battle scars on them. Always a fine line of any battle damage looking good or really really bad. But, if I can make the extra sails, it wouldn't be a big deal to try it.

Vic- ANY input is always valuable and welcome. Especially for someone as green as me.

Andrew- I realized I never responded to your davit question. Sorry. Yes, I will have davits and likely make a few extra jolly boats too. Whether one will always be hanging off the stern remains to be seen. Would like to have the chasers fire as she comes about at least once or twice. Maybe as I'm flying an American ensign and Gary is chasing me with Surprise?

kind regards
Tim
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:17 PM
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United States, CA, San Jose
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Hi everyone

Finally got my head above water with work and a dollhouse project I'm working on with my 7 year old daughter, and was able to to get my head back to Scorpion's stern.

It dawned on me that I am simply over-thinking it. Thanks to Jerry, I was able to get some help from Lars(he and his father built Racehorse and Banterer) and Lars was kind enough to send some detailed photos of Racehorse which has the 'as originally designed' stern for the Cruizer class brigs. This clarified a bunch of questions I had and after looking at his, I realized that I need to keep it simple.

Therefore, I have drawn the pattern for the stern including the two support/rests for the mizzen's boom based of plan drawings, Lar's excellent model and some translation to make it work with the existing hull shape on the kit. I'll save the fancy stern work for my future project . May even go without gunport doors(after all that) LOL We'll see.



Merry Christmas to all!
Tim
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 09:56 PM
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United States, CA, San Jose
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Not totally related to Scorpion but I've been wanting to get the various guns for the future project into the computer. Two different length 9 pounders are almost done as well.

Bringing out the big guns!

18 pounder


Shown next to the Scorpion's 6 pounder for reference


Tim
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 09:22 PM
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18 Pounder with carriage


tim
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