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Old Mar 15, 2013, 04:57 PM
Aka: Ralph
Canada, ON, Hamilton
Joined Nov 2012
210 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavillon View Post
Hi all,

I finished the Mystique and I went for the first flight. Before I had made carefull checks on the centre of gravity (120mm). I have experience with several gliders and I always make several hand launches to tune the gravity centre before first flight.

There was now wind at all and at the first launch the plane pinched nose up immediatly, and stalled. I moved the battery some millimeters forward and tried again. After several adjustements of the battery and stabilizer trim, the mystic was flying more or less correctly but I decided not to start the engine and I came back home.

I checked the centre of gravity and it was around 115mm which was far from the 117-120 mm discussed on this forum. So I measured the stabilizer incidence angle and found 3 positive angle even if it was correctly aligned it with the raised
area on the fuselage!

Have you any advice? What should be the stabilizer angle on the Mystique?

Thank you in advance.
See page 72 post 1076 for detail
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Old Mar 15, 2013, 05:16 PM
Aka: Ralph
Canada, ON, Hamilton
Joined Nov 2012
210 Posts
Final query on Flaps

Assumption... The Mystique motor is off during landing.

I have activated my flaps to full and the front end rises. I compensate with some elevator to bring the nose down.

This is where I am uncertain as to what happens. On a previous post, I read that the Mystique should loose elevation in a horizontal position if the above is done correctly.

Is that the case or is my flight sim wrong.

Thanks Ralph
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Old Mar 15, 2013, 11:20 PM
Registered User
LI, New York, USA
Joined Mar 2003
24,022 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerdan View Post
Assumption... The Mystique motor is off during landing.

I have activated my flaps to full and the front end rises. I compensate with some elevator to bring the nose down.

This is where I am uncertain as to what happens. On a previous post, I read that the Mystique should loose elevation in a horizontal position if the above is done correctly.

Is that the case or is my flight sim wrong.

Thanks Ralph
When you apply flaps, you increase the lift of the wing as well as add drag, so you should expect the nose to come up and speed to drop. This will lead to a stall. Not good.

That is why you have to add down elevator or set up a landing mix so that as you apply flaps the mix automatically applies down elevator to keep the glider level. Otherwise it will stall.
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Old Mar 15, 2013, 11:39 PM
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Fresno, CA
Joined May 2005
1,161 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerdan View Post
Is that the case or is my flight sim wrong.

Thanks Ralph
airplanes react differently by the characteristics of wing sweep, airfoil, and other factors. Some airplanes pitch up, some pitch down. Your sim is neither right nor wrong, it goes from plane to plane. fly your plane the way it wants to be flown
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Old Mar 16, 2013, 01:39 AM
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France,Paris
Joined Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerdan View Post
See page 72 post 1076 for detail
Thanks! that helps very much.
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Old Mar 16, 2013, 11:51 AM
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United States, OR, Canby
Joined Aug 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerdan View Post
This is where I am uncertain as to what happens. On a previous post, I read that the Mystique should loose elevation in a horizontal position if the above is done correctly.

Is that the case or is my flight sim wrong.

Thanks Ralph
It depends on the airspeed of the plane. If the airspeed is above the stall speed with some safety margin then the plane could be in a horizontal pitch attitude. If the flaps are creating a lot of drag it could slow the plane too much then the plane would need a little nose down to maintain the proper airspeed. The result would be flying at the same airspeed but with a steeper decent.
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 09:59 AM
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USA, CA, Chico
Joined Feb 2011
3,059 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzanutto View Post
airplanes react differently by the characteristics of wing sweep, airfoil, and other factors. Some airplanes pitch up, some pitch down. Your sim is neither right nor wrong, it goes from plane to plane. fly your plane the way it wants to be flown
A BIG +1 here!! I've flown many different planes with flaps ( ALOT were not sailplanes ) and each plane was a little and sometimes ALOT different on way they way they reacted to flap deployment ,, and also to complicate things even more,, the speed of deployment as well as how far down they're deployed can change things ALOT as well. That's one reason I personally prefer a good sailplane radio that allows me to easily set up a variable deployment as well as mixing in a certain amount of elevator mix to get it just right,, is it absolutely necessary?? NO,,,, but,,, sure is ALOT nicer. On my A9 I have my landing flaps to elevator mix on a 7 point curve to make it even more adjustable.

PS. I have one warbird that pitches UP with a small amount of flap deployment, and pitches DOWN with full flap deployment
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 10:37 AM
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LI, New York, USA
Joined Mar 2003
24,022 Posts
LANDING EXAMPLES


We have spoken about ALES, altitude limited electric soaring, contests. Here is a video of such an event. There is a group launch at the start but the pilots have a 10 second window to launch so they don't all launch at exactly the same time.

It is the landings I want you to watch. Note how they use the elevator to control speed. Many are R/E gldiers, like Radians. Some have spoilers and some are full house, such as the Radian Pros. But in every case it is about energy management.

Now, you might not be flying in a contest but you still want to strive to manage your energy so you can land in a predictable zone.

ALES contest
This is a typical ALES contest with a lot of foam gliders
East Coast ALES Festival @ DESS (9 min 6 sec)


2012 ALES National Championships. Unlike many ALES contests this contest seems to have a LOT of high end full house gliders that would be flown more like the Mystique. Watch the landings. In many cases you can see a closeup of a landing glider and you can see what happens when they deploy the flaps. Some get close to the tape and go with a LOT of flap. Others will go with less flap and come in more evenly. Practice, and the limitations of your radio, will help you determine your landing style.
ALES Contest 1.mp4 (10 min 30 sec)




The ones that follow are pure gliders, no motors and these are made so they can spike the nose to stop on the spot, but watch the attitude of the gliders as they come in. Flaps are deployed at some point and they are using the elevator to control the speed of the approach. In both videos they are fighting some strong wind so there is less use of flaps than would occur in calm conditions, but the attitude of the glider would be similar on approach.

Your landings might look like this but instead of the "dork" landing, hitting the nose, you would got for a slide in landing. Just a different type of glider and a different style of landing. So up to the last 2 seconds, You landings could look like their landings.

Note that they are trying to put the nose as close as possible to the end of that tape. The maximum score is putting the nose into a 1 inch circle around that nail head. Their score decreases for every inch they land away from the nail. At 100 inches their landing score is zero. For these guys, a score of anything less then 95 is a disaster and most of their landings would be 97 or higher.


LANDING PRACTICE - This is how you get good!
Note that these guys tape their practice, probably so they can review and learn from what they did, to get even better.
Expert and World Champion Daryl Perkins
Desert Landings 3 I2 (8 min 17 sec)



World Class competitor Brendon Beardsley
F3J Landings with Brendon Beardsley.mov (6 min 30 sec)
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 11:22 AM
Registered User
USA, CA, Chico
Joined Feb 2011
3,059 Posts
Wow!! That Ales looks HECKA FUN!!!! I Wana do that!!! Thanks AEAJR !!!
Field where I fly here in Chico is like 1/4 the size where they're flying,, PLUS I have to avoid obstacles on my landing approach ,, I'd be in HOG heaven on a field like that!!
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 11:34 AM
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LI, New York, USA
Joined Mar 2003
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ALES is a very easy contest format to run.

You need landing tapes. AMA starndard is a 10 meter (33 feet) tape scored 5 points per meter with 50 the top score. Much wider spacing than the 1 inch the pure gliders get because you can't "dork" an electric glider.

Each glider needs an ALES unit. Stops the motor at 30 seconds or 200 meters
The Soaring Circuits CAM unit is the most popular
http://www.soaringcircuits.com/

And you need a stop watch. That's it.

There are computer programs, spreadsheets, etc that can do the scoring.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1600418



It is a very easy format to run.

This is the AMA rule book for electric flight contests. ALES starts on Page 10
Most ALES contests run these rules as the base with some local variations according to the field or the group. Like any local contest, you can make up your own rules. Some run a single design and don't require ALES units. Others run classes. All according to what you want to do. I am Co-CD for our ALES contest wich is run once a month for our club members.
http://www.ales-league.org/2013-2014Electric.pdf



RC Groups has an entire forum dedicated to ALES
http://www.rcgroups.com/altitude-lim...ring-ales-770/


There is even a web based ALES League
http://www.ales-league.org/
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Last edited by aeajr; Mar 17, 2013 at 11:51 AM.
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 08:50 PM
Aka: Ralph
Canada, ON, Hamilton
Joined Nov 2012
210 Posts
That was fantastic. The 2 video was great. I could see the glider slow down as the flaps were activated. When the elevator kicked in, the glider levels out and comes in for a slower landing.Got it bookmarked.

My Mystique push rods finally arrived. It only took 4 month. WOW !!. I can finally finish this and correct what has already been discussed.
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 05:54 AM
Registered User
United Arab Emirates, Dubai
Joined Nov 2012
14 Posts
Folks,

I completed my build last night and going to maiden her this afternoon, however in my initial setup on my DX8 I used the SPM file provided by Eflite. All works ok for me ACCEPT when I hit the crow mix....the mixing works perfect on the throttle stick, but the left aileron hardly moves when giving left/right aileron input. The right aileron behaves like it should.

When looking at the servo monitor on the radio, I can see the exact same behavior

Anyone one else have this issue?
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 11:04 AM
Registered User
USA, CA, Chico
Joined Feb 2011
3,059 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr View Post
LANDING EXAMPLES


We have spoken about ALES, altitude limited electric soaring, contests. Here is a video of such an event. There is a group launch at the start but the pilots have a 10 second window to launch so they don't all launch at exactly the same time.

It is the landings I want you to watch. Note how they use the elevator to control speed. Many are R/E gldiers, like Radians. Some have spoilers and some are full house, such as the Radian Pros. But in every case it is about energy management.

Now, you might not be flying in a contest but you still want to strive to manage your energy so you can land in a predictable zone.

ALES contest
This is a typical ALES contest with a lot of foam gliders
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtcgsEOsReQ

2012 ALES National Championships. Unlike many ALES contests this contest seems to have a LOT of high end full house gliders that would be flown more like the Mystique. Watch the landings. In many cases you can see a closeup of a landing glider and you can see what happens when they deploy the flaps. Some get close to the tape and go with a LOT of flap. Others will go with less flap and come in more evenly. Practice, and the limitations of your radio, will help you determine your landing style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55PuCcke1a4



The ones that follow are pure gliders, no motors and these are made so they can spike the nose to stop on the spot, but watch the attitude of the gliders as they come in. Flaps are deployed at some point and they are using the elevator to control the speed of the approach. In both videos they are fighting some strong wind so there is less use of flaps than would occur in calm conditions, but the attitude of the glider would be similar on approach.

Your landings might look like this but instead of the "dork" landing, hitting the nose, you would got for a slide in landing. Just a different type of glider and a different style of landing. So up to the last 2 seconds, You landings could look like their landings.

Note that they are trying to put the nose as close as possible to the end of that tape. The maximum score is putting the nose into a 1 inch circle around that nail head. Their score decreases for every inch they land away from the nail. At 100 inches their landing score is zero. For these guys, a score of anything less then 95 is a disaster and most of their landings would be 97 or higher.


LANDING PRACTICE - This is how you get good!
Note that these guys tape their practice, probably so they can review and learn from what they did, to get even better.
Expert and World Champion Daryl Perkins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7411...layer_embedded


World Class competitor Brendon Beardsley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy7yo...eature=related
Those landings that pure sailplane guys do aren't landings!! That's what I'd call lawn dart practice. :-)
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 12:26 PM
Registered User
Surprise, AZ
Joined Oct 2002
82 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofen View Post
Folks,

I completed my build last night and going to maiden her this afternoon, however in my initial setup on my DX8 I used the SPM file provided by Eflite. All works ok for me ACCEPT when I hit the crow mix....the mixing works perfect on the throttle stick, but the left aileron hardly moves when giving left/right aileron input. The right aileron behaves like it should.

When looking at the servo monitor on the radio, I can see the exact same behavior

Anyone one else have this issue?
Goofen. Seems to me that you have a servo issue on the right AIL. Check your travel settings, check the hardware and switch the right AIL plug into a different port on the receiver to test the servo's travel limits. At least these ideas are a start to locating your problem. Good luck.
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 12:32 PM
Registered User
United States, OR, Canby
Joined Aug 2011
2,120 Posts
I set up my Radian Pro with a DX8. IIRC there are settings in the crow mix that will effect aileron travel as well, but maybe both at the same time, something to check maybe.
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