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Old Jan 24, 2013, 09:20 PM
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Interesting guys, keep it up. I am too tired to continue on tonight, but I can say a few things:

1. I think there is a lot of talk, but am tired of people trying to present it as such. Just because a magazine article says, or a LeO rep says something DOESNT make it a law. No matter what their credentials are. If the Sheriff told me picking my nose was against the law, that would make it so.

2. I will have to read more, but I am interested in finding out how I can help. Maybe it is just drops in an ocean, but I hope to find out soon what I can do myself (letters, petition, etc) to at least be able to say I did my part.

My position in AP is to enhance my career. I am in the construction industry, and have communicated quite a bit with my supervisor about the uses of RCAP in our weekly inspections and frequent marketing efforts. I wouldn't be getting paid specifically for this work, but it certainly in the end is for a commercial purpose. And unfortunately, without RCAP, we would have to drop the idea altogether as full scale would not be economical as a lot of our work is speculative. I have been doing FPV/AP for nearing 3 years now, and am learning ever day but well aware of what I am capable of and more importantly what can and eventually will go wrong. I have for a year really wanted to pursue AP as a commercial interest, but have always been hesitant to invest further into it.

Anyways, thanks everyone for their contributions, and I do think I will call my nearest FAA rep tomorrow and just ask outright for more info.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 01:27 AM
geekrawker
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Set your self up properly from litigation, understand business, Legal up. It is helpful to have friends in law enforcement also. The loom of administrative law should never prevent you from preparing. Thats just oppression and what gov's do when the people let them.

Reality is more likely letters, phone call, then a worst case civil suit with grossly exaggerated and unfair penalties to litigate your company broke. Or, just stop now...stop when they tell you to, or wait for the law. This isn't thumbing at authority, its business if your flying smart and safely with a clear set of rules and proper legal structure. Flying stupid and endangering people, that administrative law will kick in hard. And stupid is what they likely want to stop. Companies will be made examples of to force conformity...that process has already started. They didn't lock up the guys at Mi6films did they?

Comments open up some time this year again for the PRM, ill find the gov site and post the link, I was just reading it (again for the ?? time) the other day before I started participating in the open thread here.

Best advice, don't model a sole business on this service. You can arrange business how ever you like according to your state law. I work in video media, I'm just sliding in another business for aerials when the timings right. Now, maybe 2015... Not sure yet.

Just be safe! a seasoned responsible hobbyists should already know and understand how to do just that. My club buddy always likes to say on sat mornings "we could have all staid home today, but what fun is that, lets fly".
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by vewdew1 View Post
The jist of the situation is that there is currently no regulatory path or specific statutes governing commercial RC AP, which according the FAA makes it illegal by default. This may be debatable, but thus far has gone unchallenged in court.

As ridiculous as it is, that is the situation as I understand it today.
This is the most accurate assessment (as well as concisely stated) that I have read on this matter.
I would love to help share 'lessons learned' especially to promote safety. Please keep us informed. I'm sure people on all sides of this issue would like to increase safety.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:09 AM
geekrawker
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I agree!

try to get the local law Inforcemet on your side too if your doing this. I have buddies at both the PD and Shierffs office in my town. Nothing like having a badge carrying escort with ya when your flying around town.

I'm not saying that will stop the FAA or make it legal. But I have some folks with enforcement that would at least be in my court if the FAA calls them first. They may even voice their option on my safety practices. I know in the MI6 case (according to thier blog) the FAA called the local inforcement first, then enforcement called their clients and circulated a flyer stating the FAA says its illegal until there is a law. I'm sure eventually we will see a company willing to fold to fight the measure. And it would be a fold scenario, the power behind the FAA could definitely hang the court proceedings to bleed any small business dry.

My lawyer thinks this is similar to the laws that prevent pulpid politics (preachers can't talk politics). In Arkansas this has happened and the gov simply calls and says "stop". No official trials or legal challenges at all. Saying something is illegal with no law is just rediclious. This is off topic a little but we are still a democracy not a dictatorship, no law dosen't mean illegal in our country (scare tactic). There is no laws about me swinging a golf club...so its illegal for me to golf?

Logic, I hope will prevail... but only if we keep shouting at them. I'm concerned the mindset of our nation is becoming that of "we need gov to take care if us". That's a lazy hand out mind set, fact is, the gov is our client... They work for us and they will always need reminding of that. My fear is that us hard working non hand out objective thinkers are now the minority. No ideal how to turn this around. It's just ugly if you ask me, and quite frankly... My family is prepared to leave the country should the conspiracy theroist "Police State" come to fruition.

Just scary guys. I love my country, i get chills when we pledge alegence at the club meetings (in a good way) but I don't think our country loves us back anymore.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by geekrawker View Post
Logic, I hope will prevail... but only if we keep shouting at them. I'm concerned the mindset of our nation is becoming that of "we need gov to take care if us". That's a lazy hand out mind set, fact is, the gov is our client... They work for us and they will always need reminding of that. My fear is that us hard working non hand out objective thinkers are now the minority. No ideal how to turn this around. It's just ugly if you ask me, and quite frankly... My family is prepared to leave the country should the conspiracy theroist "Police State" come to fruition.
I have been following this thread for a while, and have noticed that there are issues being discussed that go well beyond aerial photography. It's the classic left-right argument about whether or not our government has any right to tell businessmen and citizens what to do. You have done a good job of stating the philosophy of the right, and now I am going to give you the view from the left.

Business has a very poor record when it comes to self-regulation. Take the airline industry for example. There is a direct correlation between effective enforcement of regulations and the number of pilots and passengers killed. When money is involved, it is just too tempting to fly overloaded planes in questionable weather with parts that have passed their expiration date.

Right now, the world trend is that big businesses are buying out governments. When the buyout is complete, it will not only be the people who suffer, but also small businesses who will be instantly eliminated. Who do you want running the show......your elected government, or a corporation with it's own lawyers and police force?. That corporation is only answerable to it's shareholders.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 11:21 AM
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Ok if you want to fly commercially here is the start of a path to at least get your voices heard, you have until Feb 4th 2013 to add a comment.

Patrick has just spoken to Gus from IsisCopter at the Department of Transportation is a petition for exemption for various sections of 14 CFR parts; 21.191 and 91.319 to operate an sUAS commercially within VLOS. Federal Register in Podcast #36

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documen...2012-0897-0002 Let the FAA know you are out there and want to be heard.

Get your thoughts on there, make their Monday morning a busy one.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 11:39 AM
geekrawker
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Originally Posted by Puddytatter View Post
I have been following this thread for a while, and have noticed that there are issues being discussed that go well beyond aerial photography. It's the classic left-right argument about whether or not our government has any right to tell businessmen and citizens what to do. You have done a good job of stating the philosophy of the right, and now I am going to give you the view from the left.

Business has a very poor record when it comes to self-regulation. Take the airline industry for example. There is a direct correlation between effective enforcement of regulations and the number of pilots and passengers killed. When money is involved, it is just too tempting to fly overloaded planes in questionable weather with parts that have passed their expiration date.

Right now, the world trend is that big businesses are buying out governments. When the buyout is complete, it will not only be the people who suffer, but also small businesses who will be instantly eliminated. Who do you want running the show......your elected government, or a corporation with it's own lawyers and police force?. That corporation is only answerable to it's shareholders.

You make an excellent point, (i love open forums so don't be afraid to share opinions, i am not judgmental ). I think the truth for me is really "neither". I'm all for small government and small businesses, the backbone that made our country great at one point. (i'm a middle to right-est thinker) neither giant corps or giant gov is the answer in my opinion, maybe education and critical thinking is what is necessary for the generations below us.

i think the vast majority of americans ride the fence on left or right thinking (middle-est mind set). Neither opinion or side makes for "bad people". i would my opinion is the voted in officials get sucked into what ever roderick takes place about controlling the population when they enter office, and it comes with a nice pay check so why challenge it when you do get to capitol hill?.

Some of the stuff regarding lobbying from big corps is equally scary. Research the old topic on the regulations on farmers that use genetic engineered crop seeds. its a great example of powerful business getting in bed with the gov to regulate what our farmers are doing.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 12:29 PM
geekrawker
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Originally Posted by Gary Mortimer View Post
Ok if you want to fly commercially here is the start of a path to at least get your voices heard, you have until Feb 4th 2013 to add a comment.

Patrick has just spoken to Gus from IsisCopter at the Department of Transportation is a petition for exemption for various sections of 14 CFR parts; 21.191 and 91.319 to operate an sUAS commercially within VLOS. Federal Register in Podcast #36

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documen...2012-0897-0002 Let the FAA know you are out there and want to be heard.

Get your thoughts on there, make their Monday morning a busy one.
This is good stuff, moving it up because is more important than our political discussion. I'm a little hurt that full scale pilots are peeved with the hobbiest continuing to look at operating commercially, while yet they admit we don't conflict with the airspace. It's also frustrating to hear the FAA starting to green light his operation of developing a large heavy craft for lifting pro commercial grade systems that are 1. Already available from a few companies in the USA. 2. This system could inflict a incalculable amount of damage or death to bystanders where the vast majority of ap UAV operators fall well under a 10lb craft.

Here is my latest 7lb rig quad. It's about 12"x12" without props. Just a 1 min sample, enjoy.
Dec 26 2012 Little Rock Ice Storm and Snow aerials. (0 min 0 sec)
.

My neighbor across the street is well aware of what I play with, don't freak that I was close to him, he knows the risks and is a RC pilot as well.... Lol and a guy up the street from me too.

So, why so much grace for designers of more complex and dangerous systems while the majority has to sit by and wait to be squashed or forced out of compliance because of financial limitations. I do ok for my family being in video for the past 15years. But should I start operating UAVs seriously for commercial, I still won't be able to afford ground school and full scale licensing unless I beg my full scale friends to have an instructor heavily discount or not charge. Will this be an issue of big business favoritism from the Feds? Just feels so "typical". We the people are still not being heard. Lets gear up to comment as soon as its made available!
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 01:00 PM
aerialskycam
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Quote:
Ok if you want to fly commercially here is the start of a path to at least get your voices heard, you have until Feb 4th 2013 to add a comment.

Patrick has just spoken to Gus from IsisCopter at the Department of Transportation is a petition for exemption for various sections of 14 CFR parts; 21.191 and 91.319 to operate an sUAS commercially within VLOS. Federal Register in Podcast #36

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documen...2012-0897-0002 Let the FAA know you are out there and want to be heard.
Hey Gary,

Thanks for the link! I do not know if you remember me or not, but I was on the sUAS news blogtalkradio with Patrick in October about flying commercially.

How are things with you?


Quote:
This is good stuff, moving it up because is more important than our political discussion. I'm a little hurt that full scale pilots are peeved with the hobbiest continuing to look at operating commercially, while yet they admit we don't conflict with the airspace.
Yeah, the commercial full-scale pilots are pretty upset.

Here are some more rules starting on July 2013. And there are more rules to come.

http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/.../IN0020.1.html
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 01:34 PM
geekrawker
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Originally Posted by AerialSkyCam View Post

Here are some more rules starting on July 2013. And there are more rules to come.

http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/.../IN0020.1.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Mortimer View Post
a petition for exemption for various sections of 14 CFR parts; 21.191 and 91.319 to operate an sUAS commercially within VLOS. Federal Register in Podcast #36

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documen...2012-0897-0002
So what are we suppose to say to help him that helps us? i still think the comment opening on the PRM will be much louder. But lets talk about what we can post on his own petition to further "our" benefit for smaller operations without slamming his progress. We can get some good comments in before they close up that docket. Remember, they mentioned in the podcast to include the document number or our response wont get post even though we are commenting directly from the page... typical.

By the way, reading the document posted by AerialSkyCam (good to see your hanging around man), they are talking about a class D felony?! granted we would always get a release agreement signed before shooting, but in my state, a class D felony is punishable with a minimum of 10 years in prison. Really?! That means my competitor will be behind bars this July 2013 as he also shoots for a news station and you know they are not getting release forms or disclosures from everyone in view. WOW guys, just wow.
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Last edited by geekrawker; Jan 25, 2013 at 01:43 PM. Reason: checked out my local class D felony laws.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 01:54 PM
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By the way, reading the document posted by AerialSkyCam (good to see your hanging around man), they are talking about a class D felony?! granted we would always get a release agreement signed before shooting, but in my state, a class D felony is punishable with a minimum of 10 years in prison. Really?! That means my competitor will be behind bars this July 2013 as he also shoots for a news station and you know they are not getting release forms or disclosures from everyone in view. WOW guys, just wow.
Thanks. I have been doing this along time, and I am used to noobies who do not even own a camera gimbal, but yet have all the answers. lol

Yes, starting July 2013, it will be a felony if you take photos of a person or object using a RCAP product. I didn't write the rules, the Senate did.

http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/.../IN0020.1.html

Now this is just an introduced version, more will be added to this by July 2013.

As I stated long ago in this thread..."be careful".
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AerialSkyCam View Post

Yes, starting July 2013, it will be a felony if you take photos of a person or object using a RCAP product. I didn't write the rules, the Senate did.

http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/.../IN0020.1.html

Now this is just an introduced version, more will be added to this by July 2013.

As I stated long ago in this thread..."be careful".
You are correct "IF" they were not hired and are taking pictures w/out permission. Unless I'm reading that wrong? I don't know about you all, but I don't go around taking pictures for free so 100% of my locations I have the permission of the land owner or agency currently managing that land/space as they are the ones who hire me.

I have been doing demos with a local law enforcement agency, guess I'm going to need to make sure they make up their mind before July though if I expect to make anything more then a few friends from the deal
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 02:12 PM
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Law enforcement have a COA, so they can do it. If your not Law enforcement, US Govt, or a Universitity, then you do not have a COA.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 02:34 PM
Staying Frosty
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Originally Posted by AerialSkyCam View Post
Law enforcement have a COA, so they can do it. If your not Law enforcement, US Govt, or a Universitity, then you do not have a COA.
Who funds these groups?

Quote:
Prohibits the use of public money to purchase an unmanned aerial vehicle.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 02:36 PM
geekrawker
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Originally Posted by Hellsiege View Post
You are correct "IF" they were not hired and are taking pictures w/out permission. Unless I'm reading that wrong? I don't know about you all, but I don't go around taking pictures for free so 100% of my locations I have the permission of the land owner or agency currently managing that land/space as they are the ones who hire me.

I have been doing demos with a local law enforcement agency, guess I'm going to need to make sure they make up their mind before July though if I expect to make anything more then a few friends from the deal
My concern is the TV contracts i'm staring at for the networks.... i'm not worried about the small private operation jobs where its easy to get signatures. I'm talking the news media wants us to be on call for location shooting. Thats a gold mine, but we wont be able to touch it after July.
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