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Old Oct 07, 2012, 04:20 AM
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Uk South Wales
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartonwood View Post
Regarding Melnic's reply in post #543.

I have read through 555 posts in this thread. It must have taken the best part of three hours.

Yet, after all that time we still do not have a definitive description of what this device can do. Worse still, the very guy that wrote what seems to have been adopted by HobbyKing as THE manual for this appears to be getting angry because someone asks a simple question that may, or may not, have been answered on one or more of the other 541 pages up to that particular time.

I don't want to appear rude or arrogant but there is, as far as I can tell:

THERE IS ONLY ONE LOGICAL WAY TO MOUNT THIS DEVICE WITH RESPECT TO THE AIRFRAME.

If you have an aircraft that is already built and set-up to fly correctly then it is imperative that the addition of this device into the control system is done by connecting like for like inputs and outputs, i.e. elevator to elevator, rudder to rudder and aileron to aileron (L) - yes, I know that this is not so obvious until you try it as there is only one aileron input but two outputs (without any obvious reason)! The next step orient the device so that the arrow on the printed circuit board points to the front of the fusilage, i.e. in the direction of the thrust, and with the connector pins on top. Whatever else happens, ignore any other psuedo arrow markings on the outer case as they are NOT arrows just some young graphics guy’s doodles.

Now, ANY rotation about an axis ROTATES the other TWO GYRO AXES through 180 degrees. This means that for those two axes the SENSE of the GYROS will be REVERSED and the aircraft will become totally unstable as regards those two axes.

To understand this if you are not sure: spin a wheel on an axle then rotate the axle so it points in exactly the other direction – which way is the wheel now rotating with respect to its initial rotation?

I fully understand that all this turning of the orientation of the unit this can be overcome if you have a fancy transmitter, reversing leads w.h.y. with the facility to reverse the outputs and all that other complicating mumbo jumbo. BUT, WHY BOTHER TO MAKE IT SO COMPLICATED IN THE FIRST PLACE? In an engineering environment you would be laughed out of the room if you came up scheme like this. Remember the Hubble Mirror? They had to spend a great deal of effort (money) to fix a situation that they spent a great deal of effort (money) in creating, all of which need not have arisen in the first place. If you are building an RC aircraft you should build it so that it works with a “STANDARD” transmitter/servo setup that is logical and without fixes such as reversing of inputs etc. UNLESS THERE IS A VERY GOOD REASON TO. You know what the acronym "KISS" stands for so make it a principle to work by.

Another point, what is wrong with simple wiring diagrams to describe how to connect the various elements of the system together. Circuit diagrams have been developed over a period of around two centuries to a point where they are beautifully elegant and accepted as the most succinct, most accurate and the easiest way to describe such interconnections - why on Earth are we using of words to do this?

Following on: I noticed that RCPowers have supplied some diagrams as well. They also state that one must use a certain control sytem power schema but without saying why or giving a meaningful explanation. I have a feeling that they have been having trouble with electrical noise from servos and ESC's corrupting the gyro data. As this device was (this is not a guess) designed to work in this environment any noise susceptability should have been addressed by the circuit designer and accounted for. In Europe, any electrical or electronic item should not be susceptible to noise emanating from other sources and no item, except transmitters, should be radiating electromagnetic interference that could affect the operation of other devices - where does that leave HobbyKing and the manufacturers of this device? For, if this is the case, then these devices cannot have been CE approved and should not, therefore be sold in Europe. In the USA there are similar laws in place and they would certainly be in breach of regulations. This noise, if it exists, can be reduced by the use of electrical filters and by sensible routing of signal and power wiring, i.e. seperating them to reduce cross-talk. What does seem odd, is that this device consists of a microprocessor which is inherently a very noisy device and the gyros use digital signals (II2C or I squared C) to communicate with the processor so should be fairly noise tolerant if adequate, on board, precautions were taken.

In conclusion, this lack of documentaion is due solely to cost cutting by the manufacturers and sellers of these item made in the Far East. About 25 years ago in the States, there was an engineer who designed and kitted the parts for a homebuilt biplane that was absolutely first class - I can't remeber his or the aircraft's names. They even made a documentary for the Open University over here in the UK about the design, manufacture and documentation processes that were involved - I think it cost around half the total budget to document the kit. I know from peronal experience how much work has to go into documentation, development, compliance etc. when designing and building equipment here in the UK and it seems to me that almost none of this occurs with so much of the stuff that comes out of the Far East. Just look how much trouble it causes when you buy what might be a nice, simple and useful piece of kit but are frightened to use it in case it falls out of the sky and kills someone because the manufacturer and retailler are only interested in one thing - Profit _ and not about customer care. So here we are, we spend three hours trying to find a definitive description of how to use one small device and still cannot be certain we have!

Sincerely,

John
It is as has been stated a very basic 3 axis rate gyro, nothing more.

It can if set up right smooth the flight especially in gusty wind

It can also be used as an aid in learning 3d to a certain degree but is dependant on airframe choice and can be a pain to dial in due to the oversensitive gain pots

Its a bit of fun for experimenting but for seriou applications there are better products aroun

Dave
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Old Oct 07, 2012, 07:48 AM
CURIOSITY Has Landed!
Fugitive_Bill's Avatar
Sydney, Australia
Joined Jul 2005
1,169 Posts
R,

I've got no problem setting the gyro up, all I'm concerned (wishful of) about is being able to remotely turn the gyro on & off, and perhaps even adjusting the gain remotely with dials(s) on the 9X TX.

I've been using Turnigy TG380 gyro's in planes for ages and they work quite well, I'll be interested in how the Orange performs compared the 380's when I finally install it. Still have not decided which of my planes I'm gunna put/test it in.

As mentioned I don't think it's too far away where they (HK/TurnigyHextronics) will produce an Orange Receiver with DSMS2/ACCST/FASST with 3 axis (remote controllable) gyro, accelerometer and telemetry (and maybe one day, even GPS) all built into the one unit!!

B!
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Old Oct 07, 2012, 08:11 AM
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Sydney, Australia
Joined Jan 2007
1,689 Posts
I've just ordered a Nexus 7 tablet, and what that has built into it is little short of unbelievable. It was released about 2 months ago, but will probably be obsolete by Christmas . Apparently the hardware was taken from initial idea to mass production in 6 months, though the Android software took longer.
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Old Oct 07, 2012, 12:33 PM
Retired in NC
Rich in ILM's Avatar
USA, NC, Wilmington
Joined Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartonwood View Post
Regarding Melnic's reply in post #543.

Just look how much trouble it causes when you buy what might be a nice, simple and useful piece of kit but are frightened to use it in case it falls out of the sky and kills someone because the manufacturer and retailler are only interested in one thing - Profit _ and not about customer care. So here we are, we spend three hours trying to find a definitive description of how to use one small device and still cannot be certain we have!

Sincerely,

John

Sorry I was going to let this go, but I kept thinking about it.
I had never done any gyro work before but it took all of 15 minutes to set up this unit and several flights to get the rates dialed in. I would suggest that if stuff like this causes you discomfort, you might want to stay with suppliers like Horizon Hobby e.t.c with their much higher markups and some useful documentation. Having this unit for $15.00 is spectacular.
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Old Oct 07, 2012, 06:00 PM
CURIOSITY Has Landed!
Fugitive_Bill's Avatar
Sydney, Australia
Joined Jul 2005
1,169 Posts
Crude Pencil Draft #1 of an idea for for Orange Gyro/Orange RX's and HK 4Ch Buddy Controller.

Will do computer drawing and explain what it is and concept at a later time.
(Been up all night working on planes and electronics, so I gotta crash!!!)

B!LL!
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Old Oct 07, 2012, 11:24 PM
Bruno, GOOD DOG
A Rdnek's Avatar
United States, IA, Grinnell
Joined Aug 2007
4,022 Posts
GOOD LORD Bill. Talk about over-complicating something, Do you work for the government?
If you want to turn it on and off, buy this. It works perfect.
http://www.goodluckbuy.com/eagle-a3-...-function.html
Rn
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 02:57 AM
numnutchris
Joined Sep 2009
415 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Rdnek View Post
GOOD LORD Bill. Talk about over-complicating something, Do you work for the government?
If you want to turn it on and off, buy this. It works perfect.
http://www.goodluckbuy.com/eagle-a3-...-function.html
Rn
+1 on the overcomplicated stuff.... I bought an used FY20 for a plane to switch stab on/off and four OrangeRx's for other stuff to fool around with.
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 10:55 AM
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Bill0's Avatar
United States, CA, Oceanside
Joined Aug 2010
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I have one of these on a plane and wanted to be able to turn it off and on in flight. The first thing I tested was what control I had when it was turned it off. Answer....none. When its off, the servos have no power. Tested, by the way on the ground.

I stopped fiddling with the on and off part of it right then. I have a fy20 and it can be turned on and off in flight.

I would think, unless they update the f/w so this can be done without also turning off the servos, a person will need to buy a different stabilizer.

When properly set up, this one works great, for what you pay for. More features, means more money.
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 01:57 PM
Team Wack-a-Mole
Melnic's Avatar
Maryland
Joined Oct 2008
8,439 Posts
Yes,
If you want ON/OFF control, get the Eagle A3 Pro, guardian or the BlueLight.
http://www.mycoolrc.com/gyro/gyroLINKS.html

What's a 4 channel buddy controller?
Sometimes what many percieve as a "wacky idea" has some merrit, so I want to hear this out.
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 05:36 PM
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Joined Aug 2012
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This is a great little stabilizer for the buck, basic but works very well and they do not come with a manual and as mentioned above you do need male to male servo extensions to hook it up
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 05:43 PM
ancora imparo
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Melbourne, Australia
Joined Jul 2005
6,642 Posts
Melic it is a switch in the plane that allows two receivers to control one set of servos and you switch between the receivers using a channel on the first one. Two Tx and two Rx with control passing from one Tx to the other by means of a switched channel on the first (Master) transmitter which the trainer uses. The student has the second transmitter . Works just like a buddy box but the trainer and student can both use their own Tx and Rx which they are a familiar with and they do not have to be the same make or cord compatible.

Assan make one that Hobby King sell.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ntroller_.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melnic View Post
Yes,
If you want ON/OFF control, get the Eagle A3 Pro, guardian or the BlueLight.
http://www.mycoolrc.com/gyro/gyroLINKS.html

What's a 4 channel buddy controller?
Sometimes what many percieve as a "wacky idea" has some merrit, so I want to hear this out.
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 05:50 PM
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And with regards to mounting correct me if im wrong but in order for it to compensate for unwanted yaw pitch and roll the unit must be mounted and the center point of all these three things your (COG) for best results thats what i did in my sky surfer and i lowered the gains quite a bit and it works very well
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 07:05 PM
Has Sloped Off
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Uk South Wales
Joined Aug 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matix101 View Post
And with regards to mounting correct me if im wrong but in order for it to compensate for unwanted yaw pitch and roll the unit must be mounted and the center point of all these three things your (COG) for best results thats what i did in my sky surfer and i lowered the gains quite a bit and it works very well
Orientation is important to get the functions to perfom correctly but the unit can be placed anywhere on the plane from wingtip to nose to tail as it only measures angular change and that is constant wherever you measure it, think of it like this if you yaw the model 45 degress to the right it rotates around the CoG but all the parts of it rotate 45 degrees. The wing tips will move a greater DISTANCE but travel through the same ANGLE. It is a common misconception that gyros need to be on the CoG. R/C Helis have been using gyros for a long time and they are almost never on the CoG as its on the main shaft, so would need to be mounted underneath it they are more commonly mounted at the fuz end of the tailboom. If it was an inertial or GPS based auto pilot system then yes the CoG would be the best place to fit it as they measure distance as well.

In planes we usually have the luxury of some space in the fuz and can put them at the CoG to avoid any need for added ballast weight to compensate for them being at the nose or tail etc. This unit is very light so unless fitted in a very lightweight model such as indoor or 3d foamie it shouldnt give much change in CoG.

The one consideration is that the length of the male to male cables should be kept as short as possible as it could build the weight up, I made very short ones so that it can be mounted on or alongside the RX, this may not be near the CoG so keeping weight down minimises the trim change due to a change in CoG.

Dave
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 07:28 PM
LiPo-Sucker & Airframe EMT
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Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Joined Aug 2010
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Nice explanation, Dave.

Dave
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 07:56 PM
Has Sloped Off
dav3uk's Avatar
Uk South Wales
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pugsam View Post
Nice explanation, Dave.

Dave
Thanx, getting it down in words is kinda awkward sometimes.

I am having a blast with this unit but not in normal use,

I have been using it in a 3d model and finding its limits, that was fun but now I am using it to try and fly my PZ Corsair as wild as possible by moving the CoG back till its unflyable then fitting the 3Axis to try and tame it.

My Corsair has 6 servos in the wings 2 flap and 1 aileron each side and she will hover in a slight breeze so is great hack plane to experiment with. At the moment the CoG is 30mm behind the stock location and it still quite flyable but when the wind drops later in the week the CoG is going back some more.

The static margin on the plane is becoming non existant and may get negative which is going to be whole lot of fun.......lol

So far the unit has performed well with only very slight glitching at neutral and has handled all the planes its been in just fine.

My only dislike is the feeling of seperation you get when the gains are high, that slight feeling of not being in control........lol

Dave
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