HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Jul 04, 2012, 09:30 AM
Registered User
Larry Jolly's Avatar
Joined Oct 2003
1,927 Posts
It seems to me that if you are going to integrate them as just another class,it doesn't make sense to have a different tape for the E guys. I totally agree with discarding arresting devices for all classes. Everyone should fly the same task and land on the same circles or runways. Giving the winch in the nose guys an easier landing task would not be true integration. Besides different tapes makes it more complicated to run...LJ
Larry Jolly is online now Find More Posts by Larry Jolly
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Jul 04, 2012, 10:31 AM
Registered User
jtlsf5's Avatar
United States, CA, Folsom
Joined Jul 2007
2,580 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Jolly View Post
It seems to me that if you are going to integrate them as just another class,it doesn't make sense to have a different tape for the E guys. I totally agree with discarding arresting devices for all classes. Everyone should fly the same task and land on the same circles or runways. Giving the winch in the nose guys an easier landing task would not be true integration. Besides different tapes makes it more complicated to run...LJ
I agree 100%. The whole concept of integration is all are equal, not separate and sorta equal. Same flight task, same landing task/tape.

Regarding skegs, modern J planes make this sort of a nonsense-issue. They are designed to spot land (okay, spear land) without the need of an arresting device. In the end, its about learning to land your plane accurately, and skegs are a crutch that actually keep one from learning the critical skill of managing the planes energy and setup (flaps retracted at touchdown) during the landing phase of a flight. Training wheels shouldn't be needed after a certain point.

I would tend to move to a runway or FAI tape to put less emphasis on the need to spear a plane into the ground to get the best landing score.

JT
jtlsf5 is online now Find More Posts by jtlsf5
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 10:54 AM
Registered User
raed5's Avatar
Orlando "Buzzards" FL
Joined May 2002
1,251 Posts
We tried it at our last Gentle lady contest, there was only 4 of us, but it was a good way for us to experiment. Three of us were flying 2 meter rudder/elevator sailplane, and the forth was flying a Radian.
Our biggest debate was when to start the clock for the ALES plane! we decided when it leaves the hand of the pilot to keep it consistant with an ALES format. Another concern was altitude limit, we decided 100 meter would be equivelant to a winch launch.
It worked out great, there was no clear advantage to either type. Our next step is try it at a bigger contest, should boost the # of participants up.
Raed
raed5 is offline Find More Posts by raed5
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 02:46 PM
Always more to Xplore
SoaringDude's Avatar
near Sacramento, CA
Joined Aug 2010
876 Posts
**ahem** Removing skegs on non-e planes as a result of integrating ALES into a TD event? What next, requiring an extra 4 ounces of weight to be strapped onto all non-e planes?

I'm honestly not trying to be inflammatory here. When you start imposing changes to typical TD planes, that's crossing a line that many will/should balk at.

And I make this point still assuming that e-planes would fly in a separate class...

Chris B.
(have a nice day )
SoaringDude is online now Find More Posts by SoaringDude
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 04:43 PM
LSF303 / AMA Life Member
tkallev's Avatar
USA, IL, Wheeling
Joined Jan 2003
3,165 Posts
Guess that's why you call yourself Soaring Dude and not Landing Dude?

As JT said, skegs are a crutch many pilots come to rely upon rather than learning how to control the plane's flight to arrive at a point in space and time with minimum energy for a spot landing.

Skegs are only allowed in AMA TD (actually, they are not DISallowed) ... in all FAI competitions they are not allowed.

Skegs came along with newbies purchasing outrageously strong molded models that don't require basic launch and landing skills ... TD today is similar in flight profile to an aircraft carrier catapult launch and trapped landing with a tailhook ... with a little thermalling thrown in to justify the Thermal Duration name.
tkallev is offline Find More Posts by tkallev
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 05:07 PM
Good for what ALES you
awilmunder's Avatar
United States, CA, Novato
Joined Jan 2009
457 Posts
TD planes are very specifically designed to take an impact on the nose. ALES planes with spinners motor shafts and firewalls are not so happy being driven into the ground. How to level the playing field? Here's a wild idea that might be fun to try.

There are relatively inexpensive 'Shock' reporting devices that are designed to attach to shipping cartons to report damage during transit. You could attach one to your plane and so the new task is not only duration, but also returning the aircraft to a target on the ground without exceeding a particular G-Force.

Anybody have some of these that we could try?

http://www.uline.com/BL_1053/Shockwatch
awilmunder is online now Find More Posts by awilmunder
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 05:27 PM
Registered User
Joined May 2011
64 Posts
ALES at the FALL SOARING FEST

We at CVRC have been following this threads post with much interest. We have been talking for some time about just exactly what JT and the folks in Sacramento tried. Glad to see they pulled it off with much success. With there success with blending ALES and TD we are going to offer it as a class in this years Fall Fest.
Details to follow.
cflyer1 is online now Find More Posts by cflyer1
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 05:43 PM
Always more to Xplore
SoaringDude's Avatar
near Sacramento, CA
Joined Aug 2010
876 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by awilmunder View Post
How to level the playing field?
Why even try to level the field? It's apples (non-e) to oranges (e-).

Allowing e-planes to fly in previously non-e TD contests is great for clubs because it increases the number of participants. It's great for e-pilots because they get to fly in more contests and test their skills.

To the point made many times in several threads about trying to change the landing task so it's more "fair" for e-planes, skegs or no skegs, it's about pilot control of your plane, right? The better a pilot, e- or non-e, the better your landing score will be. Non-skeged e-planes just have to better control approach speed and factor in the skid part of the landing which I have already seen done in masterful ways by the better pilots.

Chris B.
SoaringDude is online now Find More Posts by SoaringDude
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 06:22 PM
Registered User
R.M. Gellart's Avatar
Joined Nov 2005
3,592 Posts
Landing tasks are the same for all, but I have a different view of where skegs came from. Not newbies with big time ships (but they gravitated to them), but landings tasks that had microscopic scoring partitions that forced guys have absolutely no, or nearly none, sliding. Now, to me, F3J has no up on TD anymore, cause they slam them in as hard (or worse) as any decent TD flier with a very flat controlled landing. The amazing thing in F3J is that you can flip it/smash it/or kill it, and the landing still counts. TD has some issues, but landing is not one in my book.

Any event that requires no skeg and it hard ground like we have in Muncie when we get there this year for the Nats and possibly the Masters, the term, "screendoor slamming" will be in my mind. That is what you hear from one end of the landing zones to the other and in my mind that is way harder on the equipment that any skeg landing, but that is my personnal opinion.

Getting back to ALES/TD, no give-me's one way or the other, if you fly an ALES ship you are taking it on with the knowledge that you have some +/-'s in either direction and vice-versa.

Marc
R.M. Gellart is online now Find More Posts by R.M. Gellart
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 07:00 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
2,702 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoaringDude View Post
Allowing e-planes to fly in previously non-e TD contests is great for clubs because it increases the number of participants. It's great for e-pilots because they get to fly in more contests and test their skills.
At the risk of being overly pedantic, "previously non-e TD contests" are just that - PREVIOUS. As brokers continuously remind us, past performance is no guarantee of the future. What is being discussed here is a possible change for SOME totally voluntary participants. No one and no club or organization can be compelled to actually do any particular thing. And it is useful to remember that clubs and like minded individuals have always been free to devise different ways to compete with planes. I have flown in contests with happy face landings and with non-concentric circles.

The operative idea here is agreement among like minded people -- not universal agreement. If the concept of mixing electric and TD can be turned into facts on the ground (or in the air) that are useful and satisfactory for enough people to participate, who are any of us to sit on the sidelines and tell other people how to entertain themselves?

This discussion is about the feasibility of blending in some way electric and winch launched planes. Whether you or I or anyone else agrees that some particular part of the effort is "right" or "fair" is really unimportant. What really matters is for advocates to get out and test ideas and arrive at something that is deemed by its participants to be right and fair. For those of us who are not inclined to participate it really doesn't matter.

There are rules in place in the UK for what we call ALES, for TD, and for blended events. They obviously meet the needs of particular constituencies, but are not foisted on unwilling participants. It seems to me that devising a way of blending our events may meet the needs of some potential participants whose needs are currently underserved. And while there is surely a discovery process that will cull some of the flaws you and others have identified, I have full confidence that the parties who work to advance this idea are sufficiently intelligent and self-aware to figure out what they like -- and that's what really matters.

Happy Landings,

Don
dharban is online now Find More Posts by dharban
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 08:38 PM
Registered User
Steve Bailey's Avatar
United States, IN, Mishawaka
Joined Sep 2009
221 Posts
In the few contests I've had the privilege of attending, pop offs were not allowed. You had to fly it out. How would this issue best be handled in a Ales/TD event, seeing that propeller launched gliders have no risk of a pop off?
Steve Bailey is offline Find More Posts by Steve Bailey
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 08:48 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
2,702 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bailey View Post
In the few contests I've had the privilege of attending, pop offs were not allowed. You had to fly it out. How would this issue best be handled in a Ales/TD event, seeing that propeller launched gliders have no risk of a pop off?
You've obviously not been to any ALES contests. There is a reasonable frequency of misfires where there is a failure to start at all -- and occasionally there is even a propeller pop off

Failure to launch (or launch within the specified launch window) is the pilot's problem. And no issues on whose responsibility any particular line break is.

Happy Landings,

Don
dharban is online now Find More Posts by dharban
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 09:02 PM
Registered User
Steve Bailey's Avatar
United States, IN, Mishawaka
Joined Sep 2009
221 Posts
While correct about ALES contests attended, I have witnessed more than a few propeller in nose gliders being launched over that last 3 or 4 years. As yet, I have not seen a single failed launch, hence my question.

I did witness a failed low level save by propeller once and I now own that plane. I use it soley for generating interest in soaring with my local flying buddies. So far it has been money well spent.
Steve Bailey is offline Find More Posts by Steve Bailey
Last edited by Steve Bailey; Jul 04, 2012 at 09:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 10:03 PM
Good for what ALES you
awilmunder's Avatar
United States, CA, Novato
Joined Jan 2009
457 Posts
Failed launches can be caused by forgetting to swap out a battery, which can cause a low-power launch or a complete shutoff when the voltage drops below the ESC cut-off. Last contest the shrink tubing on my battery wires got lodged between the outrunner motor and the fuselage wall creating a fine coat of plastic dust to cover the interior and failure to attain full altitude. I have seen batteries that weren't connected and receivers that weren't bound properly. Most problems could have been caught with a pre-flight check or a quick charge.

How to handle Pop-offs has always been up to the discretion of the CD and should remain that way. Often one or two are allowed since it could be a winch issue. With ALES, the pilot is responsible for the entire aircraft so any issues are the pilot's responsibility.
awilmunder is online now Find More Posts by awilmunder
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 10:10 PM
Registered User
Steve Bailey's Avatar
United States, IN, Mishawaka
Joined Sep 2009
221 Posts
I have say that makes good sense.
Steve Bailey is offline Find More Posts by Steve Bailey
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Contest Dayton TD, DLG, ALES 2012 Contests skye8070 Sailplane Events 32 Jul 14, 2012 09:41 PM
Discussion Help finding an article on UAS integration into the NAS jtprouty UAV - Unmanned Aerial Vehicles 9 May 10, 2012 10:52 PM
Discussion Orange County CA - Electric TD / ALES Fields rvsixer Electric Sailplanes 20 Mar 21, 2012 07:52 PM
Discussion Can we do ALES and TD in the same contest? alstrahm Electric Competition Soaring-F5J/ALES/e-Soaring 60 Mar 10, 2012 07:07 PM
Discussion Can we do ALES and TD in the same contest? alstrahm South Bay Soaring Society 2 Feb 25, 2012 12:44 PM