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Old Jul 01, 2012, 05:37 PM
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SoaringDude's Avatar
near Sacramento, CA
Joined Aug 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtlsf5 View Post
Chris,
Its actually pretty easy to verify the altitude limit that a CAM unit is set to. JT
JT, your suggested preflight check would certainly catch a setting mistake. And if as IBWALT suggests it is super easy to tell the diff between 150/200M then you could use some contest "checkers" to watch the e-planes for this. This might potentially remove this one variable. Would have to try it and see how it works.

Running 2 separate classes just seems so much easier/fairer to me.

Guess I need to start building my e-Rocket glider for these upcoming contests. One of the features is a launch hi-C battery pack that gets ejected at the top of launch. The goal is to zoom an extra 100M above cutoff before leveling off...
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 05:52 PM
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jtlsf5's Avatar
United States, CA, Folsom
Joined Jul 2007
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Chris,
I hope you come out next Sat. for the MOM ALES contest. Frog-E will make his debut in this one class event, and I could use a timer!!

JT
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 06:07 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
2,492 Posts
It seems to me that we are getting ahead of ourselves (except for the guys who are actually trying different TD/ALES combinations. There are a lot of variables which will ultimately determine where and how this might work.

Many groups may not have the luxury of having enough of either TD or ALES planes to put together any kind of class-specific competition where the hybrid concept might be more satisfying than having to fly in a 3 or 4 plane class. What works one place may not work another place. What really counts is whether like minded people can agree to something that brings them some satisfaction. Hell, people even put together professional rock-scissors-paper competitions. I thing glider guilders will be smart enough to figure out what works for themselves.

All of the altitude devices I have tested have ways of confirming launch altitude settings. Many of them can actually read out the total launch plus zoom altitude. Launch altitudes can be as uniform, repeatable and confirmable as participants desire. Some of them have algorithms which can restrict zooming altogether.

It is surely easy to speculate as to what might or might not work -- it is more fun to set the speculation aside and try good (and bad) ideas out and discover what works. The worst outcomes are likely better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

Happy Landings,

Don

BTW: I would suggest that shedding ballast to enhance ballistic launches would constitute the shedding of parts. At any rate, it takes a few words in the event instructions could deal with it.
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 09:24 PM
Never left one up there yet...
mdjohnson's Avatar
Canada, BC, Campbell River
Joined Jun 2009
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Originally Posted by jtlsf5 View Post
Murray,
The need to shut down the winch line for any reason would unnecessarily penalize the winch-launch guys. This is what I want to avoid along with the perception that ALES requires special consideration.

If the basic contest format is MOM, then an ALES only flight group is really no different than a non-ALES group, and it becomes a no-brainer.

If the basic contest is open winch (or call up, doesn't really matter), then stopping the contest to do an ALES only round becomes the issue.

JT
I'm sorry JT but I am not really seeing your POV. Is it correct in saying that ALES airframes should be run with the winch airframes in the same round at the same time?

I am just about to enter the TD fray again after a 14 year hiatus. My only experience has been from that time period so forgive me for I am talking from that era. At the time we had open class and 2m. They were never run together so when the 2m guys flew the open guys sat and cooled their heels. Vice versa when the open class flew. If one chose to fly both classes then you had twice the flying enjoyment!! My proposal would be that an ALES class would be run as a dedicated group with the exception of not using the winches. No one would fly except the ALES guys. It would be about a 15 min time frame to run a round as there would be call time and then a MOM simultaneous launch (and that is the beauty of ALES which launch numbers are only limited to the number of available landing lines/spots) could occur with a 10 min task...which is an ALES norm.

I now see we have a RES class, Open class, 2m class and in some instances a nostalgic class. Why not an ALES class? I think the ALES arena is growing at a rapid rate and it would be great if we as a TD group could cater to that growth. I know that I would have to get in on the action.

Only my humble opinion and hope I am not treading on toes by posting my thoughts as I am going to be a relative newcomer.......with an Xplorer 4.0!!

Cheers

Murray
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 10:04 PM
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near Sacramento, CA
Joined Aug 2010
753 Posts
JT,
Sure I'll come out next weekend. Wouldn't miss Frog-E's contest debut!

Don,
Now is the perfect time to be discussing this. To reiterate my main point: if our goal is to conduct a TD contest that fairly compares pilot skills, then the fewer plane differences within a class the fairer the contest will be. The better question may well be: how important is this ideal? Club by club the answer will no doubt vary. BTW my e-Rocket project was made tongue in cheek although now I'm thinking it might be pretty cool to build...

Murray,
Congrats on rejoining the TD fray. I restarted 2 years ago after 10 years off as a baseball dad. Double congrats on your X 4.0. I have been flying one since Feb and really like it although for windier conditions I prefer my heavier X 3.8.

Chris B.
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 10:44 PM
Never left one up there yet...
mdjohnson's Avatar
Canada, BC, Campbell River
Joined Jun 2009
98 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoaringDude View Post
JT,
Sure I'll come out next weekend. Wouldn't miss Frog-E's contest debut!

Don,
Now is the perfect time to be discussing this. To reiterate my main point: if our goal is to conduct a TD contest that fairly compares pilot skills, then the fewer plane differences within a class the fairer the contest will be. The better question may well be: how important is this ideal? Club by club the answer will no doubt vary. BTW my e-Rocket project was made tongue in cheek although now I'm thinking it might be pretty cool to build...

Murray,
Congrats on rejoining the TD fray. I restarted 2 years ago after 10 years off as a baseball dad. Double congrats on your X 4.0. I have been flying one since Feb and really like it although for windier conditions I prefer my heavier X 3.8.

Chris B.
Thanks Chris!

I am really looking forward to the contest season next year as I may or may not get an airframe (Xplorer) for this one. All depends on how many NAN sent to Bob excluding the World team members who have one or more on this container due any day now. Long story short is that I have been put out to pasture from the work world and now am filling my time with models. I have been competing in pattern for the last little while and have really enjoyed it but I miss the TD competition as I campaigned a Dodgson Lovesong on my last go around and was quite successful at it........how things have changed!! Now I'll have the best of both world's for the next few years. Turns out the weekends that the pattern contests are on are the alternate of the TD contests here in the western Canada/Pacific Northwest.

I am super interested in the ALES thing as I have a BoT e that has a CAM unit installed and another friend and I are having some great times doing little ALES contests of our own. It would be great to see this integrated with some TD contests as I for one would definately partake!

All in fun (after all that is the ultimate goal)

Murray
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Old Jul 02, 2012, 10:06 AM
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United States, CA, Folsom
Joined Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdjohnson View Post
I'm sorry JT but I am not really seeing your POV. Is it correct in saying that ALES airframes should be run with the winch airframes in the same round at the same time?

I am just about to enter the TD fray again after a 14 year hiatus. My only experience has been from that time period so forgive me for I am talking from that era. At the time we had open class and 2m. They were never run together so when the 2m guys flew the open guys sat and cooled their heels. Vice versa when the open class flew. If one chose to fly both classes then you had twice the flying enjoyment!! My proposal would be that an ALES class would be run as a dedicated group with the exception of not using the winches. No one would fly except the ALES guys. It would be about a 15 min time frame to run a round as there would be call time and then a MOM simultaneous launch (and that is the beauty of ALES which launch numbers are only limited to the number of available landing lines/spots) could occur with a 10 min task...which is an ALES norm.

I now see we have a RES class, Open class, 2m class and in some instances a nostalgic class. Why not an ALES class? I think the ALES arena is growing at a rapid rate and it would be great if we as a TD group could cater to that growth. I know that I would have to get in on the action.

Only my humble opinion and hope I am not treading on toes by posting my thoughts as I am going to be a relative newcomer.......with an Xplorer 4.0!!

Cheers

Murray

Murray,
Yes, I am suggesting it should be possible to run an event with both launch methods mixed in the same event. What might be required is a landing task that doesn't favor either, such as a runway landing task.

It is quite normal for mixed classes to fly intermingled. The only exception might be a MOM type event. My point is that anything that allows continuous contest flow is a good thing. Forcing competitors to sit and watch while others fly is not the best solution IMO.

My belief is that anything that can be done to integrate ALES into the mainstream (NOT separate by equal, just equal) is good.

Good to see you back. I flew with SASS in the mid-90's and remember you from Mission events in those days.

JT
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Old Jul 02, 2012, 11:31 AM
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JT, we have done exactly the same thing at our TD contests (the two we've done so far this year) up here in Portland. Integrating ALES worked great and has generated new interest in contest flying amongst our own club members and we even brought in a couple of new (to us) pilots from a power club in the Tacoma area. Diversity has been a big positive, had no drawbacks and we plan to continue doing so at our future events.
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Old Jul 02, 2012, 11:38 AM
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Thomasec, do you guys fly your contests in a single class or do you have a separate ALES class? How many guys fly at each contest?
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Old Jul 02, 2012, 12:01 PM
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United States, WA, Tumwater
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I was one of the new pilots at the last Portland event. They flew four classes. open (expert & competitor), res, 2m, and ales. All flew at the same time. I saw no problems with the winch/ power aircraft flying together. I personally enjoy the m.o.m. aspect of other ales contests that I have flown, but will be back. I also flew my first td contest that day and had a blast. I am looking at adding a new open td plane and a 2m to my fleet for next year and doing more of this type of flying. By adding ales, clubs just might pick up some guys like me that might not have tried td before.

Mark
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Old Jul 02, 2012, 12:10 PM
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Thus far we've done pretty much the same as SVSS with a separate ALES class added to the typical Open, 2-meter and RES classes we normally run. Scoring and landing is the same. We typically have 15 to 20 pilots at our small contests. We will at some point add an entirely new ALES only contest where there will be tasks and landing set-ups more tuned for electric soaring. But thus far we have been very happy with integration.
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Old Jul 02, 2012, 12:40 PM
Never left one up there yet...
mdjohnson's Avatar
Canada, BC, Campbell River
Joined Jun 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtlsf5 View Post
Murray,
Yes, I am suggesting it should be possible to run an event with both launch methods mixed in the same event. What might be required is a landing task that doesn't favor either, such as a runway landing task.

It is quite normal for mixed classes to fly intermingled. The only exception might be a MOM type event. My point is that anything that allows continuous contest flow is a good thing. Forcing competitors to sit and watch while others fly is not the best solution IMO.

My belief is that anything that can be done to integrate ALES into the mainstream (NOT separate by equal, just equal) is good.

Good to see you back. I flew with SASS in the mid-90's and remember you from Mission events in those days.

JT
Thanks for the welcome back JT!

Things have obviously changed from 14 years ago!! I am looking forward to the challenge of learning all the new (old) camber changing tactics with the new model. Lots to learn just like when I re-joined the pattern crowd. When I got out of the hobby to chase full scale acro competition there were a few guys in the corner fooling around with Gentle Ladies with ~16 cell nicads and were just barely able to get it to climb. We all chuckled to ourselves and said "that's never going to go anywhere". How wrong we were!!!

I certainly can see the advantage to run ALES with all the classes re down time on the winch. It looks as if you guys have worked out a plan to do so and I am looking forward to the evolution of ALES. I did not know that all classes are flying simultaneously now. Learning curve is still very steep at this point. Personally I think ALES will be one of the major growth areas in RC, but just my opinion. Just look at how the Radian has blasted onto the scene. It would be a big positive for TD contests to nurture and cater to it. Well done in the integration!

I'll bring my eBoT to the mix. May not be that competitive but will be an awful lot of fun. I've found that priorities change with age and retirement. Now it's all about the fun and the people.......placing at the top is a way down the list!!

Looking forward to seeing all you NWSS and SASS guys again. Hopefully my X4 will be in the next container. Should know in a week.

Cheers

Murray
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Old Jul 04, 2012, 03:52 AM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
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You might want to graduate the landing tapes differently for TD and ALES.
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Old Jul 04, 2012, 07:40 AM
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tkallev's Avatar
USA, IL, Wheeling
Joined Jan 2003
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Remove the skegs from TD and use the latest F3j point per 20 cm graduation of the inside 2 meters of the landing tape ... works for both TD and E-TD without damaging the expensive end.

Of course, that means the TD folk will have to relearn how to land without their "meat hooks" ... not necessarily a BAD thing!
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Old Jul 04, 2012, 07:57 AM
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dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkallev View Post
Remove the skegs from TD and use the latest F3j point per 20 cm graduation of the inside 2 meters of the landing tape ... works for both TD and E-TD without damaging the expensive end.

Of course, that means the TD folk will have to relearn how to land without their "meat hooks" ... not necessarily a BAD thing!
At the Polecat we used a 5 meter tape with 1/2 meter, 5 point graduations up to 50 points. It was not an onerous task.

Tom's suggestion is a good one. I would not object to a 5 meter tape with 10 cm, 1 point graduations up to 2 meters.

I hate landings, but none of these suggestions will result in the carnage many of us imagine. And in a blended ALES/TD format the slightly tougher landing tape (and no skegs for the TD planes) might be a pretty good compromise.

Happy Landings.

Don
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