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Old Aug 16, 2012, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by gkamysz View Post
And how long does fuel sit before you get it in your hands?

What "light ends" and lead in methanol are they talking about? It sure sounds like VP is talking about gasoline in that FAQ response.

Greg
Greg I think they were talking about racing fuels in general. There are different grades of alcohol just as there are for gasoline. Just because they say it is 99% pure doesn't mean much in advertizing. You can have 99% pure gasoline but, how well refined is it? what other additives or stuff are in there? whats the octane rating? VP has 3 levels of pure methanol but when you read the MSD sheets they only use pure methanol in their blend. Aaaarrgh. Alcohol just like gasoline has aromatics (light ends, ether, esters) which mostly help the fuel to vaporize and sanctioning bodies check for this by the dielectric strength and specific gravity plus whatever else they check for. These aromatics like water have a smaller molecular size than hydrocarbons so they pass through plastic easier. I know with drag racing we sometimes check the methanol for contamination and NHRA and IHRA events always check the fuel for water and other stuff. But like Gary said there are different plastics with different ratings. I don't think my Morgan fuel bottles use the best plastic for the price I pay and I don't take chances with it. I'd be more concerned with the clubs that buy it in drums and the people using it and handling it properly. Ah what the hell, follow directions and everything should be fine.

Cheers
Ray
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 04:11 PM
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http://www.vpracingfuels.com/download/Tech-Methanol.doc

Methanol is a single chemical. Anything else in a can of methanol is an impurity or added intentionally.

Just what is the water vapor transmission rate for a typical fuel jug?

Greg
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 04:16 PM
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Well I wonder which plastic they use for holding glow fuel. I would think it is HDPE.
There is a chart here showing the different water transmission rates for some plastics
http://www.alphap.com/basics/compare.html
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 04:54 PM
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If what they are saying is true, A plastic bottle full of water set on a sponge should be empty after a few years. The water just flows through the plastic into the water absorbing sponge.

I've got many plastic jugs full of water stored for emergencies and they are still full. According to you guys, they should empty out after awhile. It's cheapie plastic that milk comes in.

Like I said, I have dozens of plastic few bottles that have been sitting on the concrete floor in my basement for years and the fuel works as well as it did when I bought it.
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 05:27 PM
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I really suspect it might be something where the cap is loose on the jug or it has a small pinhole in it. My fuel jugs that bulge out in the summer and suck it up in the winter and don't leak are good for 20 years or more at home. So if a jug isn't staying sealed good and it isn't bulging or sucking it up as the temperatures change is leaking, and sucking in air and letting out the vapors thus absorbing moisture out of the air. But none of my fuel containers are sitting on the concrete floor either.

But there could be a osmosis like effect happening. I am sure there is a better name for it. But this is when the jug sucks it up some and we have a bit of a vacuum inside and then the moisture in the concrete may be conducive to being drawn through the plastic bottom of the jug to mix with the methanol which might have a tendency to help draw the moisture through too.

But then it could all be another urban myth too.
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by earlwb View Post
I really suspect it might be something where the cap is loose on the jug or it has a small pinhole in it. My fuel jugs that bulge out in the summer and suck it up in the winter and don't leak are good for 20 years or more at home. So if a jug isn't staying sealed good and it isn't bulging or sucking it up as the temperatures change is leaking, and sucking in air and letting out the vapors thus absorbing moisture out of the air. But none of my fuel containers are sitting on the concrete floor either.

But there could be a osmosis like effect happening. I am sure there is a better name for it. But this is when the jug sucks it up some and we have a bit of a vacuum inside and then the moisture in the concrete may be conducive to being drawn through the plastic bottom of the jug to mix with the methanol which might have a tendency to help draw the moisture through too.

But then it could all be another urban myth too.
Earl, you got it right. There is probably a loose cap or a leak somewhere. Before I store fuel, I always tighten the caps. Surprising how many are not real tight.

Can't be osmosis. Here is the definition of osmosis from a college chemistry book

"The movement of solvent molecules through a SEMIPERMEABLE MEMBRANE from a region of lower solute concentration to a region of higher solute concentration."

Plastic is not a semipermeable membrane.
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 06:16 PM
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Yeah, that's for something like 100 square inches of 1 mil (.001") film at 100F and 75% RH. What about a bottle like used for fuel? .050" thick? cooler and less humidity? Less than .01g/day?

The fact is plastic bottles leak gasses at various rates. The industry has gotten very good at what they do so the permeation is very low these days. Take for instance Loctite bottles. Anaerobic sealants set up in the absence of oxygen. LDPE is pretty good at keeping water from passing, but not at all good a keeping oxygen from passing. It makes the perfect bottle for Loctite and it doesn't set up in the bottle before you can use it.

CA cures in the presence of water. Guess what it's packed in? HDPE bottles.

I don't worry about the type jug glow fuel comes in.

Greg
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 06:44 PM
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And , based on what I saw 25+ years ago , I still would not keep plastic bottles off of the garage floor for long term storage . Just a personal preference at this point .When stored long term on a garage floor there are many forces at play .

Greg , I don't "worry" either , not in the least, especially for short term. It is a given that there have been improvements in plastics but fuel tank makers are constantly changing materials to this day . I doubt that the 25+ year old fuel bottles in question were high density poly bottles and my comments were in no way a reflection on current bottles .

Still using the remnants of my stash of 30 year old FOX Missle Mist . Good as new in the original cans .

BTW Earl,

The fuel bottles I spoke of were only the few on the floor .All were moisture contaminated , all were foil sealed caps . The remaining cases just a few feet away on a shelf were fine .
I offered up an anecdotal personal obsevation .
Theorize all you want . ..If you want .

ASTM F1249 - 06(2011) An ASTM designation number identifies a unique version of an ASTM standard.


F1249 - 06(2011)

F = materials for specific applications;

1249 = assigned sequential number

06 = year of original adoption (or, in the case of revision, the year of last revision)

(2011) = year of last reapproval



ASTM F1249 - 06(2011) Standard Test Method for Water Vapor Transmission Rate Through Plastic Film and Sheeting Using a Modulated Infrared Sensor


Active Standard ASTM F1249 Developed by Subcommittee: F02.10 |Book of Standards Volume: 15.10



Buy Standard (PDF) more info 5 pages $ 40.00
Buy Standard (Print)

more info 5 pages $ 40.00

Historical (view previous versions of standard) ASTM License Agreement Shipping & Handling

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ASTM F1249
Significance and Use

The purpose of this test method is to obtain reliable values for the WVTR of plastic film and sheeting.

WVTR is an important property of packaging materials and can be directly related to shelf life and packaged product stability.
Data from this test method is suitable as a referee method of testing, provided that the purchaser and seller have agreed on sampling procedures, standardization procedures, test conditions, and acceptance criteria.

1. Scope



1.1 This test method covers a procedure for determining the rate of water vapor transmission through flexible barrier materials. The method is applicable to sheets and films up to 3 mm (0.1 in.) in thickness, consisting of single or multilayer synthetic or natural polymers and foils, including coated materials. It provides for the determination of (1) water vapor transmission rate (WVTR), (2) the permeance of the film to water vapor, and (3) for homogeneous materials, water vapor permeability coefficient.
Note 1—Values for water vapor permeance and water vapor permeability must be used with caution. The inverse relationship of WVTR to thickness and the direct relationship of WVTR to the partial pressure differential of water vapor may not always apply.


1.2 This standard does not purport to address all of the safety concerns, if any, associated with its use. It is the responsibility of the user of this standard to establish appropriate safety and health practices and determine the applicability of regulatory limitations prior to use.
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 09:37 PM
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Yeah I have heard of it happening, but it is tough to come up with a explanation for it. It sort of defies what I know. I guess it is watching the containers and see if they breathe or do they bulge out and suck it in as the temperatures change. It could be when the container sucks itself in, that something happens to allow moisture to be wicked in through the bottom.

Fox Missile Mist fuel. Yeah that is the good stuff for sure. I think they still sell it from time to time too, but it is in plastic jugs now.

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Old Nov 03, 2012, 04:14 PM
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don't let this thread die!!!!
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 09:27 PM
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don't let this thread die!!!!
Ok. I remember Missle Mist.

Sure smelled nice!
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Old Nov 04, 2012, 04:35 AM
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Im not mentioning original containers but be careful when needing to put a nitromethan containing fuel into a plastic bottle.Nitro attacks on some plastics.
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Old Nov 04, 2012, 06:38 AM
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Howdy Turk I appear to be stalking you but do you know what plastics are ok . Can you go by the recycle number . I just recently scorded some 20 L. containers that would be perfect for my home brew fuel but I need to do a bit of research 1st on suitable plastic . I would go check but its dark outside and I get abit scared in the dark . Its 11pm and the F1s are about to start . cheers the pope
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Old Nov 04, 2012, 10:15 AM
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HDPE, recycle number 2, is suitable for glow fuel.

Turk, any idea which plastics are unsuitable? I've never heard such a thing?

Greg
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Old Nov 04, 2012, 11:04 AM
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Nitromethane

I have attached a PDF on nitro, see page 4 on storage and which plastics are compatible with it.

Ray
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