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Old Jun 28, 2012, 03:52 PM
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Build Log
RC Aerodyne 600 size BlackHawk UH-60 Build Log

Hi all.

Time for a new project. i have ordered RC Aerodynes black hawk uh-60 600 size, complete with raised tail drive system, cockpit and weapons set.
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Old Jun 28, 2012, 04:33 PM
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Hi all.

In the mean time, i decided gather up all my parts, powertrain, multi rotor heads, blades etc etc.

I ordered some blades advertised by smartmodel, swept tip carbon fiber blades, because according to kin, the TF Model blades both Horseman and i have on our Apache's are too soft, and when loaded up they flex causing cyclic wobble. Nice to know after paying for such things!?

They looked promising so i ordered 2 sets of 4, thismorning i greet the courier, open the packet, and find only 4 blades, they were well packaged. straight away, they look like test blades, grey, when i was told they would be black.

These blades look absolutely terrible, and too dangerous to fly by the looks of it. both the leading and trailing edges have quite bad de-laminations and pockets where the resin has not set level or correctly. Ie, these were factory seconds, unsafe to apply to a $6000+nzd scale heli. Unfortunately, this was the final straw for me in a string of failures from smartmodel.

blades front:

de-lamination / chipped trailing edge



So moving on from this, if anyone has knowledge of any really nice looking swept tip scale rotor blades for blackhawk/apache, id be greatly appreciative.

After building the apache, i realized, you do not actually need to go out and purchase a t-rex combo. the apache and black hawk both come with their own side frames, and i have skids and tail fin left over from the t-rex 600 esp that is inside the apache, so im ok when it comes time to testing the mechanics.

i looked over the apache, and listed which parts from the original esp were inside her. Motor mount, maingear/1waytail drive, mainshaft bearing blocks, and torque tube gear output shaft, a couple of strengthening rods, and the bottom mounting bracket. the rest was all my install. So i ordered everything i needed, and am waiting on just the maingear/1way gear.


My black hawk powertrain consists of

1x SCORPION 4025 550KV MOTOR (550kv with 5mm shaft! excellent - i dont have to drill out any pinions!)
1x Turnigy K-force 120a ESC
1x castle Creations 12cell 20a BEC
2x Hyperion 4200MAH 6cell Lipo
4x Savox HV servos
1x spectrum 8 channel receiver
1x BeastX Microbeast 3 way gyro

ive got CNC 4 bladed Main and tail rotors too.

Well thats it for now, she should arrive within the next few days and ill be back then with updates!
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Old Jun 28, 2012, 10:43 PM
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United States, WA, Steilacoom
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Originally Posted by JayNZ View Post
Hi all.

In the mean time, i decided gather up all my parts, powertrain, multi rotor heads, blades etc etc.

I ordered some blades advertised by smartmodel, swept tip carbon fiber blades, because according to kin, the TF Model blades both Horseman and i have on our Apache's are too soft, and when loaded up they flex causing cyclic wobble. Nice to know after paying for such things!?

They looked promising so i ordered 2 sets of 4, thismorning i greet the courier, open the packet, and find only 4 blades, they were well packaged. straight away, they look like test blades, grey, when i was told they would be black.

These blades look absolutely terrible, and too dangerous to fly by the looks of it. both the leading and trailing edges have quite bad de-laminations and pockets where the resin has not set level or correctly. Ie, these were factory seconds, unsafe to apply to a $6000+nzd scale heli. Unfortunately, this was the final straw for me in a string of failures from smartmodel.

blades front:

de-lamination / chipped trailing edge



So moving on from this, if anyone has knowledge of any really nice looking swept tip scale rotor blades for blackhawk/apache, id be greatly appreciative.

After building the apache, i realized, you do not actually need to go out and purchase a t-rex combo. the apache and black hawk both come with their own side frames, and i have skids and tail fin left over from the t-rex 600 esp that is inside the apache, so im ok when it comes time to testing the mechanics.

i looked over the apache, and listed which parts from the original esp were inside her. Motor mount, maingear/1waytail drive, mainshaft bearing blocks, and torque tube gear output shaft, a couple of strengthening rods, and the bottom mounting bracket. the rest was all my install. So i ordered everything i needed, and am waiting on just the maingear/1way gear.


My black hawk powertrain consists of

1x SCORPION 4025 55KV MOTOR (550kv with 5mm shaft! excellent - i dont have to drill out any pinions!)
1x Turnigy K-force 120a ESC
1x castle Creations 12cell 20a BEC
2x Hyperion 4200MAH 6cell Lipo
4x Savox HV servos
1x spectrum 8 channel receiver
1x BeastX Microbeast 3 way gyro

ive got CNC 4 bladed Main and tail rotors too.

Well thats it for now, she should arrive within the next few days and ill be back then with updates!

I have used thoe scale semi symmetrical blades you are referring too. They do not wobble, however they do balloon a little bit when going against the wind, they require very small amount of ptich and low head speed. Although they flew well, I chosed to remove them from my heli, and went with the Funkey Fibre Glass scale blades, much better performance from them and they were spot on balanced.

Funkey Symmetrical 600mm scale FG blades
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Old Jun 29, 2012, 03:57 PM
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I have used thoe scale semi symmetrical blades you are referring too. They do not wobble, however they do balloon a little bit when going against the wind, they require very small amount of ptich and low head speed. Although they flew well, I chosed to remove them from my heli, and went with the Funkey Fibre Glass scale blades, much better performance from them and they were spot on balanced.

Funkey Symmetrical 600mm scale FG blades


Hi jose! are you talking about the tf model semi symmetrical blades?

im new to the erm ballooning, i suppose it has something to do with the heli wanting to lift due to the airflow?

my hughges 5 blade head is at 1600rpm, i cant really go any lower without causing powertrain heat issues. would these blades react badly to that kind of headspeed?

thinking of getting spinblades or as you mentioned, funkey scale blades.
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Old Jun 29, 2012, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JayNZ View Post
Hi jose! are you talking about the tf model semi symmetrical blades?

im new to the erm ballooning, i suppose it has something to do with the heli wanting to lift due to the airflow?

my hughges 5 blade head is at 1600rpm, i cant really go any lower without causing powertrain heat issues. would these blades react badly to that kind of headspeed?

thinking of getting spinblades or as you mentioned, funkey scale blades.
What motor Pinion are you currently using? When I had a 560kv motor in order to keep the heat normal I had to use a 12t. Since you are using 5mm shaft you could go down to 11t and bring the head speed down while keeping the temp in the normal ratio. Are you on governed head speed?

Those blades, yes, the TF model flat bottom, do not perform well with high head speed nor high pitch.
The funkey are symmetrical, while the spin blade are semmi-symmetrical (flat bottom)
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Old Jun 30, 2012, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by josereyes View Post
What motor Pinion are you currently using? When I had a 560kv motor in order to keep the heat normal I had to use a 12t. Since you are using 5mm shaft you could go down to 11t and bring the head speed down while keeping the temp in the normal ratio. Are you on governed head speed?

Those blades, yes, the TF model flat bottom, do not perform well with high head speed nor high pitch.
The funkey are symmetrical, while the spin blade are semmi-symmetrical (flat bottom)

Hi jose,

I am looking for a 1250rpm headspeed. ive got the 12t pinion incidents both you and i experienced at the front of my mind, so i was thinking 13t. on the apache im running 500kv motor with 14t, headspeed is perfect. so 550kv, 13t, should knock 10% off the headspeed, and keep me within the same ball park. heat is not an issue on the apache, 23deg esc, uncooled. motor 32deg cooled. the hughes is a bit different because im using a 740kv motor 9t, but im using a compass knight, so the main gear ratios are completely different, 83t main gear. luckily they worked in my favor. i would like the headspeed to be lower, but 1600 seems to work fine, and my temperatures are between 42 & 45 degrees C for the esc and motor. they are however a bit more exposed to cool airflow in the hughes than the apache.

i am however, running the apache on 10cell 4200mah (6mins with 20% residual life) and the hughes on 8cell 4200, (5mins with 20% residual life) so its a trade off between power/flight time Vs Overheating/Headspeed. in the promo video, nick from rc aerodyne was using a scorpion 4025 630kv, 173t main gear (trex) and what i assume must be 12- 11 t pinion, 80A HV Esc, and using 2 x 6 cell 5000mah and he says he is achieving 18mins of flight time!!!! thats running a angled torque tube tail drive system too. impressive.

also so far i have not been using governor, as i like to fly scale in idle up 1 and because my throttle curves are quite low, the governance of power when it kicks in was quite brutal because i was having to run governor mode low on the turnigy k-force. i didnt like that much. it maybe a bad habit but, only for scale, i fly governed for 3d
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Old Jul 01, 2012, 12:37 AM
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United States, WA, Steilacoom
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Originally Posted by JayNZ View Post
Hi jose,

I am looking for a 1250rpm headspeed. ive got the 12t pinion incidents both you and i experienced at the front of my mind, so i was thinking 13t. on the apache im running 500kv motor with 14t, headspeed is perfect. so 550kv, 13t, should knock 10% off the headspeed, and keep me within the same ball park. heat is not an issue on the apache, 23deg esc, uncooled. motor 32deg cooled. the hughes is a bit different because im using a 740kv motor 9t, but im using a compass knight, so the main gear ratios are completely different, 83t main gear. luckily they worked in my favor. i would like the headspeed to be lower, but 1600 seems to work fine, and my temperatures are between 42 & 45 degrees C for the esc and motor. they are however a bit more exposed to cool airflow in the hughes than the apache.

i am however, running the apache on 10cell 4200mah (6mins with 20% residual life) and the hughes on 8cell 4200, (5mins with 20% residual life) so its a trade off between power/flight time Vs Overheating/Headspeed. in the promo video, nick from rc aerodyne was using a scorpion 4025 630kv, 173t main gear (trex) and what i assume must be 12- 11 t pinion, 80A HV Esc, and using 2 x 6 cell 5000mah and he says he is achieving 18mins of flight time!!!! thats running a angled torque tube tail drive system too. impressive.

also so far i have not been using governor, as i like to fly scale in idle up 1 and because my throttle curves are quite low, the governance of power when it kicks in was quite brutal because i was having to run governor mode low on the turnigy k-force. i didnt like that much. it maybe a bad habit but, only for scale, i fly governed for 3d

I'm running governed head speed and the transition is very soft, as well as spool up very soft.. here is a data sheet of my esc settings to achieve a scale spool up with governed head speed. When I was using the 560kv on 12S a 13T was to fast of head speed and kept the ESC very hot... once I went down to a 500kv the heat issues disappeared, and I was able to achieve the head speed I needed while in governed mode. The five blade head needs a lower head speed, than the 4 blades... On my 12S setup with 4500mah 45c x 2 I can get 14 minutes without reaching the limtis of the batteries, however, I keep my flying time to 7 minutes, since that seems to be long enough for me....

How's your Apache dowing so far?
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Old Jul 02, 2012, 03:41 PM
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I'm running governed head speed and the transition is very soft, as well as spool up very soft.. here is a data sheet of my esc settings to achieve a scale spool up with governed head speed. When I was using the 560kv on 12S a 13T was to fast of head speed and kept the ESC very hot... once I went down to a 500kv the heat issues disappeared, and I was able to achieve the head speed I needed while in governed mode. The five blade head needs a lower head speed, than the 4 blades... On my 12S setup with 4500mah 45c x 2 I can get 14 minutes without reaching the limtis of the batteries, however, I keep my flying time to 7 minutes, since that seems to be long enough for me....

How's your Apache dowing so far?

thanks for that data, the turnigy k force esc has a nice soft spool. those setting are pretty similar to mine.

with the 500kv motor in the apache, i found 12cell took the headspeed too high, and my throttle curve had to be low as a result, IE, 40,42,,45,48 otherwise the blades would start "whirrrrring" and vibrating. i found the way to reduce heat issues and headspeed all in one go was to drop down to 10 cell 4200mah, and went up to 14 t pinion. on the black hawk, i will run the exact same setup, except i have 50 more rotations per watt, a 10% increase. so to drop it back down, ill reduce the pinion by 1T = 10% and should achieve the same headspeed.

the apache is doing great jose,

here she is a few weeks back:
T-REX 600 ESP APACHE AH-64B FULL FLIGHT.mov (5 min 21 sec)


and heres my hughes500d 600 compass knight which i detailed and repainted and installed new HV powertrain(740kvmotor - 5 blade head)
Hughes500D-Multi Blade Head - compass knight 600e.mov (3 min 57 sec)
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Old Jul 02, 2012, 05:28 PM
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thanks for that data, the turnigy k force esc has a nice soft spool. those setting are pretty similar to mine.

with the 500kv motor in the apache, i found 12cell took the headspeed too high, and my throttle curve had to be low as a result, IE, 40,42,,45,48 otherwise the blades would start "whirrrrring" and vibrating. i found the way to reduce heat issues and headspeed all in one go was to drop down to 10 cell 4200mah, and went up to 14 t pinion. on the black hawk, i will run the exact same setup, except i have 50 more rotations per watt, a 10% increase. so to drop it back down, ill reduce the pinion by 1T = 10% and should achieve the same headspeed.

the apache is doing great jose,

here she is a few weeks back:
http://youtu.be/wIM_58JAK7c

and heres my hughes500d 600 compass knight which i detailed and repainted and installed new HV powertrain(740kvmotor - 5 blade head)
http://youtu.be/rQZNcH1JvAY

Very nice

I noticed on the video that there wasn't much wind, or at least seems that way. Here in WA we always have moderate to high winds which messes up with the flat bottom blades. So what pitch curve you ended up with the scale blades...
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Old Jul 03, 2012, 03:11 PM
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Very nice

I noticed on the video that there wasn't much wind, or at least seems that way. Here in WA we always have moderate to high winds which messes up with the flat bottom blades. So what pitch curve you ended up with the scale blades...
hi jose, no not much wind at all, maybe light 5kt variables. we do have a pretty stern SW come in, which carries an frosty antarctic breeze, but we brave it. yeah when its windy, both my scale heleis react a lot differently. the windage and "balooning" def keep you on your toes.

my pitch curve, i have 7degrees up and 5 degrees down. super smooth, and i seem to have enough power to keep me out of trouble if i find myself there. especially when i get stuck in my own wash.
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Old Jul 03, 2012, 03:20 PM
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hi jose, no not much wind at all, maybe light 5kt variables. we do have a pretty stern SW come in, which carries an frosty antarctic breeze, but we brave it. yeah when its windy, both my scale heleis react a lot differently. the windage and "balooning" def keep you on your toes.

my pitch curve, i have 7degrees up and 5 degrees down. super smooth, and i seem to have enough power to keep me out of trouble if i find myself there. especially when i get stuck in my own wash.
Thanks... Nice flying
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 03:55 PM
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Hey all.

well, my cockpit arrived for the uh-60 blackhawk. at first, i was stoked, but then on closer inspection found that it was broken, and looked almost second hand. the packaging was marginal, screwed up newspaper shoved on top and below of it. pretty shabby to be honest, no bubble wrap or any precautionary packaging used. just shoved in there, taped up and shipped. to be fair, it was most likely all in one piece when robert sent it out. ironically, i ended up having to pay extra to have this part shipped out separately because robert said it would have gotten damaged, and also damaged my black hawk fuse if it was sent in the same box...go figure!

heres what it should look like: http://www.scaleflying.com/600-Size-...ers_p_794.html

heres what i got


so, it came complete with two snapped joysticks and a broken elevator stick and broken instrument panel, and a nasty big glue burn mark where someone has used strong CA to try and glue something there and pretty much melted the entire area where the pilots feet and the missing joystick should sit.

see white patch of glue burn mark...not cool


I asked for it to be replaced, but decided to harden up and glue the bits back together. i sent a pretty abrupt email to him so hopefully robert is still talking to me . haha. sorry robert.

also included in the kit was a complimentary set of tools which are pretty cool if you are a beginner and not keen to fork out. i have a pretty comprehensive set of tools so these will probably make a nice gift.
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 06:32 AM
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RC Aerodyne 600 Size UH-60 Blackhawk Build

JayNZ,

I take it you havenít tried to test fit in the Blackhawk yet! Youíre in for a real treat when you do! I tried unsuccessfully for I donít know how long and finally decided that the only way it was ever going to fit was if I took it apart first and then reassembled it in place. But before I went that far I had to have conformation that that was the only way to install it.

Here is the reply I received from RC aerodyne.

Ronald,
Unfortunately the factory jumped the gun and installed the seats, to get it into the fuselage you will need to remove the seats, then once in the fuselage re-glue the seats to the cockpit.

Sincerely,
RC Aerodyne / Trade Associates, Inc.

So my build has been put on hold for now. Partly due to cockpit issue but mainly because of the flex cable tail drive horror stories. My other issue came with the purchase of their 4 blade PNP head which uses push rods more suited to a 450 sized helicopter as well as being extremely loose fitting.
While my build has been on hold Iíve also heard that the instrument panel is to wide to fit into the cockpit. This I cannot verify at this time.

Although this helicopter has issues Iím sure that they will certainly be overcome as thatís what we as modelers do best!

Ron

P.S. I remember seeing a tail rotor tilt kit that allows us to tilt the tail rotor the same as in the full sized version but have been unable to locate it ever since. If anyone knows where I might find this kit I would greatly appreciate a link to it.
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 10:38 AM
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Hi Ron,

You mean the raised tail gear unit from Smartmodels?

http://www.smartmodel.com.hk/product...7&image=image1

I and Jay have them in our Apaches.

Regards,

Jan
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Old Jul 07, 2012, 05:27 AM
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Hi Ron,

You mean the raised tail gear unit from Smartmodels?

http://www.smartmodel.com.hk/product...7&image=image1

I and Jay have them in our Apaches.

Regards,

Jan
Hi Jan,

Actually what Iím looking for is the tail rotor gear box that tilts the tail rotor upwards away from the tail as shown in all full size photos. I saw this advertised a few months ago and have not been able to find it since!
I have the Smart Models raised tail gear unit, thatís not what I am looking for.

Ron
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