Originally Posted by Teamsherman

Atomik have a Christmas (I refuse to say holiday) special on the RTR kit, with a HUGE $200 off making the RTR kit only $399!!!

I'm about to order mine!!!

Be quick I think it finishes tomorrow the 28th

Where did you read the sale ends on the 28th?

It's ok though, I just ordered and paid for it then as my Xmas pressie from the missus!! Woot woot!

Got the front brake, chain tensioner and spare rear tyre!

Originally Posted by Teamsherman

Where did you read the sale ends on the 28th?

It's ok though, I just ordered and paid for it then as my Xmas pressie from the missus!! Woot woot!

Got the front brake, chain tensioner and spare rear tyre!

Cool, nice present . I think it said that in the e mail I got from Atomik. Hope they might extend or keep the price at $399 .

@ chktm

The reason for asking about tyre inserts is how well Chris Nicastros concept of a flexy tyre compares to the 'Roadies' style hard as nails 'insert' as found in the M5 MX. I'm ordering the M5 Race rear wheel in the new year when work picks up so it would be nice to have some findings to correlate to when I start testing myself, most likely with the hair curler inserts, further complicated with the tyre over a tyre when I glue a Badlands on.

I try to read most of the discussion on the street bike side. The switch to stiffer tire inserts for street (roadies for example) is interesting. The variations in steet surfaces may still be varied but they are all hard and relatively smooth. The problem with that comparison to dirt bikes is how different surfaces can be as you know, not only the softness of the dirt from loamy to hardpacked, but also the option of surface types between grass, dirt, sand. Where a hard insert might work excellent is on grass or maybe high grip clay surface? I try to think of inserts for dirt bikes like with buggies or short course trucks. Its too bad R&D never got around to offering soft/med/hard options for the mx tires I would attempt to mimick what the trucks/buggies use on a specific track. Hard to compare apples and oranges but thats how Im thinking about inserts for mx.

Hey!

I have my snow tires ready now

It is something I would love to hear Chris N chip in on. The materials laying around at Venom to pee about and fiddle with...

As the VMX has the concept of softening the tyre against the M5's 'Glaswegian style insert' and remembering Chris' rail against that, I wonder just how squirminess would affect traction in a head down fast laptime kind of way.

I just wonder how the hard/soft inserts would affect things but your observation about different ground conditions makes sense.

Interesting, and something which needs some real world testing to sort out the parameters. The M5 'Glaswegian' has seemed a bit too hard for me on softish soil,perhaps causing the suspension to work harder than it should, but then there is the factor of side profile grip, which seems to benefit from a hard insert, giving it that bit of non compliance to let it drift on the surface.

(Dear Santa, can I have Edi's analysis skills... )

Originally Posted by crf250

Hey!

I have my snow tires ready now

Great job, are those little screws?

Originally Posted by Jonathan Bradbury

It is something I would love to hear Chris N chip in on. The materials laying around at Venom to pee about and fiddle with...

As the VMX has the concept of softening the tyre against the M5's 'Glaswegian style insert' and remembering Chris' rail against that, I wonder just how squirminess would affect traction in a head down fast laptime kind of way.

I just wonder how the hard/soft inserts would affect things but your observation about different ground conditions makes sense.

Interesting, and something which needs some real world testing to sort out the parameters. The M5 'Glaswegian' has seemed a bit too hard for me on softish soil,perhaps causing the suspension to work harder than it should, but then there is the factor of side profile grip, which seems to benefit from a hard insert, giving it that bit of non compliance to let it drift on the surface.

(Dear Santa, can I have Edi's analysis skills... )

Alot of the full scale cross country and enduro riders are running foam inner "tubes" to prevent flat tires in rocky terrain. I sure they would prefer tunable "air inner tubes" over the less tunable foam. That being said, I'm sure Chris N. was planning to have several different durometer foams as well as tire styles and compounds in the future for more tuning options, but sometimes the future takes a while. I think if this "sport" ever developes into anything like the off road buggies and trucks, we'll have a bunch of options to spend money on!! In my opinion (2 cents worth) The Venom/Atomic design is the better base line to start with. I own 2 Duratrax 450's and love them to death.

I'm sure Chris mucked about with loads of variations of foam before settling on the production inserts. Any development beyond the standard would have gone to production, however, like the GPV I doubt sales will be strong enough to support expanding the product line, probably due to most RC Car drivers attention span being 5 seconds

Still, he was a believer in the insert concept so I do wonder what suits best where. It'll be after crimbo before I can get the money to fiddle, then it's down to the glorious Lincolnshire weather to play it's part,dry up, and then I can make a start. The track looks a better place for hovercraft at the moment.

Originally Posted by Jonathan Bradbury

@ chktm

The reason for asking about tyre inserts is how well Chris Nicastros concept of a flexy tyre compares to the 'Roadies' style hard as nails 'insert' as found in the M5 MX. I'm ordering the M5 Race rear wheel in the new year when work picks up so it would be nice to have some findings to correlate to when I start testing myself, most likely with the hair curler inserts, further complicated with the tyre over a tyre when I glue a Badlands on.

John is spot on with what he is saying JB.
Thankfully we don't have to worry about punctures like the enduro boys who run the moose tubes Dave was talking about.
This is my two cents about tyres and inserts.
In the real world there is all sorts of tyre tread options for different types of terrain. You also adjust your tyre pressures according to the differing types of terrain. For example speedway or trails tyres have a lot of contact area on the track and also to increase that run a lower pressure in the tyre. Typical tracks that speedway run on are slick and smooth. Trails are all types of terrain but they are searching for grip not stability at the speeds they go. As grip levels increase as such like on MX tracks, again depending on the surface a different tyre tread is used as well as different pressure in the tyre. Looser type tracks you use a more open pattern tyre and slightly higher pressure and hard packed you try to get more contact and more flex with a tyre that has lower profile knobs and more of them and using less pressure. We have to deal with all surfaces using the one tyre tread. How do you make that tyre grip better on slick surfaces? By making it conform and squirm more increasing the contact patch. Sure this is exactly the opposite to what you want on a grippy surface where the movement in the tyre only hinders the bikes stability. I think Chris had the right idea with the design of the rear wheel, tyre and insert. Maybe just the materials need upgrading. Hopefully like Dave says in time we may have more choices. Don't get me wrong, the std insert is great for general bashing. It's when it's pushed hard on a track that issues start to surface. The std tyre also works really well on a variety of surfaces. Basically if you have enough mechanical traction with the track you don't want the tyre to move around. However if you find you need more traction you can get the tyre to have more contact by softening it. Either rubber compound or insert or both. I've played around with foams but not the new style inserts yet. Hope that gives you some ideas JB. Will report on what I like best for my conditions. Haven't had a chance to test the new style inserts.

As I'm stuck at the moment with the M5's non existent/nuclear bomb proof ''insert'' I'm just having thoughts about it and if it can be improved, hence the thought about the M5 Race/DXR500 wheel which does have a foam insert.

I'll stop here and create a new thread about it. This obviously needs some thought/research about tyre tread and inserts, and since I'm reflecting on the M5 and not the MM specifically.

Originally Posted by Jonathan Bradbury

As I'm stuck at the moment with the M5's non existent/nuclear bomb proof ''insert'' I'm just having thoughts about it and if it can be improved, hence the thought about the M5 Race/DXR500 wheel which does have a foam insert.

I'll stop here and create a new thread about it. This obviously needs some thought/research about tyre tread and inserts, and since I'm reflecting on the M5 and not the MM specifically.

No worries JB, I didn't even touch on the handling of bumps both sharp and rolling.

You guys are on the right track in trying to figure out what I was thinking when I designed the bike, wheel and tire concepts.
This production version is just the best average as a starting point nothing more. Its been tested in all weather from snow and ice to mud and hard packed surfaces, grass and sand. The original tire, MXR, is designed based on a typical full scale MX tire for out doors. This was how I could be sure it would work for most people. The tire is soft enough that we could drive it on a polished warehouse floor without guide wires pulling wheelies in full Super Moto style, 30mph through the warehouse!

The inserts are the same story soft enough to be good in most conditions and thats it. I have tested harder inserts and they work well. You have to adjust the suspension as well if you go harder on the "tire pressure" because of increased rebound speed.

I did design a RC track tire with a typical block pattern like Proline or other popular tire designs that are proven to work. I made prototypes from truggy tires capped on smoothed out MXR's which made the bike fully track capable. We did cut tooling on the track tires, SXR Blockpass, but in their infinite wisdom they held off production of the track tires all you guys were asking for. So just FYI they exist, I tested them, you need to ask for them. The inserts you can come up with by shopping around for foam insulation tube or rod stock for the time being. Until they get on board and sell the inserts to match the tires you can made do. Same with the track tires, you can make your own easily. Go to the track and hit a guy up for his used truggy tires. Then take your used MXR tires and shave them smooth. Glue them together with rubber cement and the edges with CA. Now you have practice tires and practice making them for super cheap.

So I hope the community at large will step up and support the need for track tires and further development in this area. Venom didnt bother to patent the beadlox tire and wheel design so there is no reason someone couldnt make components to sell. Since they are not glued to the wheels it makes tire changes cheaper and easier.

I hope this sheds some light on the VMX concept and thanks for the continued enthusiasm for the bike, it means a lot to me personally.

Chris

Originally Posted by Chris Nicastro

You guys are on the right track in trying to figure out what I was thinking when I designed the bike, wheel and tire concepts.
This production version is just the best average as a starting point nothing more. Its been tested in all weather from snow and ice to mud and hard packed surfaces, grass and sand. The original tire, MXR, is designed based on a typical full scale MX tire for out doors. This was how I could be sure it would work for most people. The tire is soft enough that we could drive it on a polished warehouse floor without guide wires pulling wheelies in full Super Moto style, 30mph through the warehouse!

The inserts are the same story soft enough to be good in most conditions and thats it. I have tested harder inserts and they work well. You have to adjust the suspension as well if you go harder on the "tire pressure" because of increased rebound speed.

I did design a RC track tire with a typical block pattern like Proline or other popular tire designs that are proven to work. I made prototypes from truggy tires capped on smoothed out MXR's which made the bike fully track capable. We did cut tooling on the track tires, SXR Blockpass, but in their infinite wisdom they held off production of the track tires all you guys were asking for. So just FYI they exist, I tested them, you need to ask for them. The inserts you can come up with by shopping around for foam insulation tube or rod stock for the time being. Until they get on board and sell the inserts to match the tires you can made do. Same with the track tires, you can make your own easily. Go to the track and hit a guy up for his used truggy tires. Then take your used MXR tires and shave them smooth. Glue them together with rubber cement and the edges with CA. Now you have practice tires and practice making them for super cheap.

So I hope the community at large will step up and support the need for track tires and further development in this area. Venom didnt bother to patent the beadlox tire and wheel design so there is no reason someone couldnt make components to sell. Since they are not glued to the wheels it makes tire changes cheaper and easier.

I hope this sheds some light on the VMX concept and thanks for the continued enthusiasm for the bike, it means a lot to me personally.

Chris

Hi Chris, personally I think you did an awesome job with the design of this bike. It never ceases to amaze me how this bike handles as well as a real bike does on dirt. Obviously some improvements to tyre tread and insert design and or material will just increase the performance of what is a proven concept. That being an insert with some give. Not a solid design. The beadlock system is great for me as I use my bike on hardpack clay and can fry tyres pretty quickly. I haven't found the need to make different treads. ( I'd only wear them out quicker lol ) I find the std tyres work really well and just get better as they wear down. Obviously if racing started up you would want tyres that worked the best straight up. Maybe in time tyre companies might look at making them however in reality we may be waiting an awfully long time.