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Old Jan 21, 2013, 12:35 AM
Team WarpSquad
Japan, Tokyo
Joined Jun 2011
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Sorry to drag this up once again but...

My take on the PID setting and putting I and D at zero is in order that you can be sure that all the effect you are having is due to your P value. I and D have no effect so the one point added to P that makes your multi wobble really is due to the one point of P you just added, not to anything else in the system.

Also, probably in the first place... there only was a P value... but then some maths/engineer/physics person decided there needed to be an I term added... and then they finally found that it worked even better with a D term as well... so initially, P was the number to change, I and D didn't even exist (i.e. == 0).

Setting your P first means you can know your maximum P setting (you're not obliged to use it - you could back off 5 points if you wanted) once you have set your P, then you start tuning I. Then, for every mod you can see the direct effect of I on the stability of the multi. Once I is done to your liking then you can add D.

The point of this method is more for easy debugging without any extra software rather than making it easy for a newb to fly. It's quite possible that 'I' often has a statistical bell curve which happens to hang around the 42% of P point but there are undoubtedly some outliers and how should they go about getting values for their systems to work?

The I & D = 0 method is clear enough for about anyone to follow (and has the benefit of being free - as long as you don't stuff it while setting up!).

(And No, I didn't use this method... mine almost flew perfectly out of the box... but now I'm curious, especially since I upped stick scaling and that definitely makes it more twitchy.)
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 12:36 AM
efx
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I found something interesting...my battery always had one cell a tiny bit off and after today when I looked at the charged battery, all my cells are actually perfect now... it just finished charging so in my case it was a very good thing as I have charged it and balanced it but it was always a bit off. Weird, but this is what it did. I'll keep an eye on the individual cells to see if they change after a couple of discharges.

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Originally Posted by flarssen View Post
That depends on how well the cells in the pack are matched. Usually there is a small difference in capacity among the cells, so one or two of them might drop below recommended minimum voltage. Discharging the pack on a charger down to,lets say 10V, then looking at individual cell voltages, gives a good indication on how well thay are matched. Anyway, KK2 senses voltage under load, so experience (with the particular pack) is needed to find the correct value.

Fred
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Creepy1 View Post
Quad flies perfect, but when auto-level is active it pulls forward/right. Any ideas? Running kk2 with 1.5 firmware.
Same issue here. Was there a fix for this? I've tried to tilt the frame back during ACC calibration and LCD reports around 15 degr pitch when level, still it runs off forward. Tried SL trim, positive and negative pitch values, but it has no affect either.

Fred
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 12:46 AM
efx
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I noticed mine was doing something similar when I first power it up. I had move the trims to make the values 0, then I saw a video where they suggested using the subtrim to get the values to 0 and leave the trims at 0 or in the middle. This seems to have fixed that for me. It was on firmware 1.2 though and after upgrading to 1.5 I still had to do this again but worked fine since i was out at night. Or at least it seemed fine again. Just a thought on what you may want to try. Now that I think of it, mine may be going forward a tad. I saw an angle value on the lcd but didn't pay much attention, see if you can find that too.

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Originally Posted by flarssen View Post
Same issue here. Was there a fix for this? I've tried to tilt the frame back during ACC calibration and LCD reports around 15 degr pitch when level, still it runs off forward. Tried SL trim, positive and negative pitch values, but it has no affect either.

Fred
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by efx View Post
my battery always had one cell a tiny bit of
At which level of charge? Since matching (capacity wise) is never 100%, cell voltage will often only be identical at the charge level they were balanced, usually when fully charged. Cell voltage might read 3.5, 3.7, 3.4, and still they will all be 4.20V after a normal (non-balancing) charge.

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Originally Posted by efx View Post
I noticed mine was doing something similar when I first power it up. I had move the trims to make the values 0, then I saw a video where they suggested using the subtrim to get the values to 0 and leave the trims at 0 or in the middle.
It shouldn't matter what you do on the Tx, to achieve "0" on the Rx test page. Anyway I always use sub-trim, but that is just to have the full trim lever range available for real trimming (analoge trims).
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 01:20 AM
efx
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Well, they are fairly new batteries. They were fine when I got them, but then my old charger was acting up and not working well. So one cell got off a bit and even after I balanced it and fully charged it, it just stayed that way until tonight when I discharged it to 9.5v then fully charged it again and balanced like I always do at the same time. It's a 2650 3 cell, but then I also crashed with it the first day I had it because it was too heavy for the 450 and I was still learning so it dove nose first right into the ground. Cells got a bit bent but it's working just fine still so I'm using it.


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Originally Posted by flarssen View Post
At which level of charge? Since matching (capacity wise) is never 100%, cell voltage will often only be identical at the charge level they were balanced, usually when fully charged. cell voltage might read 3.5, 3.7, 3.4, and still they will all be 4.20V after a normal (non-balancing) charge.

It shouldn't matter what you do on the Tx, to achieve "0" on the Rx test page, but I always use sub-trim.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 01:22 AM
Master of Flash
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Originally Posted by highace1 View Post
I seem to be having trouble getting the Flash Tool to load up...
Ive updated to the latest Java, tried both Windows and Mac but it comes up with this error on the Mac..

Uncaught exception in main method: java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: /Library/Java/Extensions/librxtxSerial.jnilib: no suitable image found. Did find: /Library/Java/Extensions/librxtxSerial.jnilib: no matching architecture in universal wrapper

Any ideas?

Cheers
Sounds like you use Mac OSX < 10.6. ? Only Mac with 10.6 and newer are supported as I don't have an older one for development.

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Originally Posted by efx View Post
I uninstalled the 11 version and downloaded the 32 bit, but I'm still not getting anywhere...I just get this and that's it...nothing.
If you get a java un-recognised error. You have to fix your PATH variable.
http://www.java.com/en/download/help/path.xml
http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutori...ent/paths.html


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Originally Posted by pelurusilver View Post
nad this is from the avrdude;


Writing | avrdude.exe: error: usbasp_transmit: usb_control_msg: sending control message failed, win error: A device attached to the system is not functioning.

....

Reading | avrdude.exe: error: wrong reading bytes 70
####
Is there anything else connected to the board than the programmer? Please remove all ESC and the receiver before flashing.

Christian
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 01:33 AM
efx
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I may have to check that later if I want to use this computer. Right now I'm loving the fact that I don't need a computer to make changes or an external programmer. The LCD is great and you guys have done an awesome job on this board. Thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by LazyZero View Post
Sounds like you use Mac OSX < 10.6. ? Only Mac with 10.6 and newer are supported as I don't have an older one for development.



If you get a java un-recognised error. You have to fix your PATH variable.
http://www.java.com/en/download/help/path.xml
http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutori...ent/paths.html



Is there anything else connected to the board than the programmer? Please remove all ESC and the receiver before flashing.

Christian
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
My take on the PID setting and putting I and D at zero is in order that you can be sure that all the effect you are having is due to your P value. I and D have no effect so the one point added to P that makes your multi wobble really is due to the one point of P you just added, not to anything else in the system.
As I understand it the P component tells the FC how much correction to apply relative to the magnitude of the error. The I component is relative to how fast or slow the excursions are. In terms of a pendulum P corresponds to how far it swings and I to how fast. If that is true then the tuning method described earlier that is based on timing the oscillations makes more sense than one based on a mathematical constant (e.g., I = x percent of P).
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 09:35 AM
iMultirotors
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Australia, NSW, Shellharbour
Joined Aug 2012
856 Posts
F330 acro flight part 2
This time filmed with head cam 1080p, last one was onboard cam.

Absolutely love flying this small quad, it's so responsive and agile. The KK2 does an awesome job here, though in rate mode and high stick scaling it's very easy to get into trouble.

enjoy

F330 Quadcopter, KK2 v1.5 ACRO P2, Unedited (6 min 16 sec)
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 10:17 AM
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Joined Apr 2012
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Hi all, this is my DIY Spider Quad with KK2.0 Firmware 1.4. Love this machine very much. Super stable with SimonK ESC.

Maiden DIY Spider Quad (3 min 18 sec)
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 10:52 AM
Went to mow a meadow
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Well impressed
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 12:35 PM
Specializing in RC since 1972
Temple, GA, USA
Joined Jun 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flarssen View Post
Same issue here. Was there a fix for this? I've tried to tilt the frame back during ACC calibration and LCD reports around 15 degr pitch when level, still it runs off forward. Tried SL trim, positive and negative pitch values, but it has no affect either.

Fred
Self level is broken in v1.2. You should update the firmware to v1.4 or v1.5 to use self level. I forget whether it works in v1.3 or not.

The way it is supposed to work is:
- turn off self level
- fly and trim it with the transmitter trims
- turn on self leveling
- trim self leveling flight with the self leveling menu ACC trims, not the transmitter trims
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 12:37 PM
Specializing in RC since 1972
Temple, GA, USA
Joined Jun 2009
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Originally Posted by harrym View Post
In Rolfes "Multicopter PI-tuning: How to recognize different settings." it looks like he is "string tuning" a +-Quad. If I were to do this "string tuning" with an X-Quad which motors get disconnected and which motors do the suspension strings go to?
String tuning is more diffcult on an X quad. You leave all motors plugged in. The strings need to go half way between the motors to put them on the pitch or roll axis. A dowel may help. I haven't ever done this.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 12:44 PM
Specializing in RC since 1972
Temple, GA, USA
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Originally Posted by efx View Post
I was thinking of doing this...anyway I can't plug in the programmer at the moment, the stand off is in the way so I need to remove this first. If I can use this for the voltage alarm I may as well do this too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jmj...e=results_main

With this wire and just taking out the two middle pins/wires and cutting the end I don't need and using this for my voltage connector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by efx View Post
Yeah I'm still testing it but I like to try going down a bit more. I figured as long as it's not below the 9 volts as I think it will be fine. I'm only going down to 9.5 on this first one so I may turn it back up a bit as it is taking a while to charge, but not too much. If not I only get like 6 minutes on it and well that's just too short. I do like the accuracy of the built in meter though, it's way better than the cheap buzzer as I don't think I can change that to be lower. I know some you can. I just like to try different settings without going way too low to try and find the sweet spot for me. But like you said, they're all different so I'm not constantly doing that, just when test it then I leave it alone.
If you have a weak cell, then flying down to say 10.2 volts where you think you have 3.4 + 3.4 + 3.4, you may actually have 2.9 + 3.6 + 3.7. Each time you do this, the weak cell gets weaker. If you use an alarm that watches individual cells, this battery can have a normal life.
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