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Old Oct 29, 2012, 04:10 AM
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Ilford,Essex, UK
Joined May 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brontide View Post
Ok, I feel like I'm going crazy.

Crash and broke some props this morning, nothing unusual, but after putting it back together it's barely flying. The most obvious problem is that it won't yaw left, but the motors respond as they should on directional changes. I've gone back to square one and reprogrammed and recalibrating each ESC and the problem persists. When attempting to yaw right m1 will spin faster and faster, but m3 will not even though on aileron left it will speed up as normal.

Any ideas?

Mixer editor is normal, motor layout is as expected, receiver check is normal, and sensor test is normal.
Have you checked the crash did not twist the motor to the right
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 05:43 AM
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Austria
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Originally Posted by quax View Post
I made a lot of projects with AVR CPUs using ASM and C. My toolchain is WINAVR handled by AVRStudio4.

Meanwhile C isn't so bad compared to ASM as you say. The problem is that you can write software that is slow in speed and large in size.

There is a need to go deeper into the compiler properties. If you control the ASM-output of the compiler and look for unwanted LIBs, like float lib, or control the way of bit manipulation ... and so on, you will find a way to produce small and fast code.
You alias sound not new

You must be the father of the SimonK Brushless firmware right ?

So ... I think I can't argue much about your experience with ATmel chips ...

But

Just one consideration. FC with multiple servos in/out ... are really heavily dependent on timing, so since also interrupt are also the handled ... using ASM is more easy to control the light-way of the interrupt procedure, and as well, is more easy to define which register should be used for some low level optimization, these ATmel chips have 32 registers, that can be very handy if used properly ...

The logic to be implemented in the FC is not so complex ... so ... I think staying with ASM is the right decision.

Clearly .. you can see Arduino based board, that is the opposite philosophy ... and they also works fine ...

But the KK board has always managed to works at much high frequency then Arduino based ... 200hz or 300hz vs, plain 50hz ...

If the only issue is a bug in some maths library used in ASM ... the easy approach is to fix it without make a revolution ... this library can eventually generated by compiling the C code, and see the ASM result ...

Tchuss

e_lm_70

ps: ATmega debugger, is always back in ASM ... personally I often use step by step debugging mode for check the code ... ASM is RISC .. so learn it take few hours ... just few instructions to be learn
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 05:53 AM
safer on the ground
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wilts, United Kingdom
Joined Jul 2006
717 Posts
no vibrations with camera

I've finally got my tri with the kk2,v1.2 board working perfectly so the last thing was to stop the vibrations with my key cam, I tried the usual methods and none worked very well, so my last effort was to try some sound insulation from the underside of the bonnet/hood off an old car, it worked perfectly, see the video I made yesterday.

new camera anti vibration mount (7 min 20 sec)


now every things ok for my winter break in Spain,

ray
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 06:35 AM
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Joined Apr 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70 View Post
You alias sound not new

You must be the father of the SimonK Brushless firmware right ?

So ... I think I can't argue much about your experience with ATmel chips ...

But

Just one consideration. FC with multiple servos in/out ... are really heavily dependent on timing, so since also interrupt are also the handled ... using ASM is more easy to control the light-way of the interrupt procedure, and as well, is more easy to define which register should be used for some low level optimization, these ATmel chips have 32 registers, that can be very handy if used properly ...

The logic to be implemented in the FC is not so complex ... so ... I think staying with ASM is the right decision.

Clearly .. you can see Arduino based board, that is the opposite philosophy ... and they also works fine ...

But the KK board has always managed to works at much high frequency then Arduino based ... 200hz or 300hz vs, plain 50hz ...

If the only issue is a bug in some maths library used in ASM ... the easy approach is to fix it without make a revolution ... this library can eventually generated by compiling the C code, and see the ASM result ...

Tchuss

e_lm_70

ps: ATmega debugger, is always back in ASM ... personally I often use step by step debugging mode for check the code ... ASM is RISC .. so learn it take few hours ... just few instructions to be learn
I dont see a lower timing affect the flight quality on a multiwii or the APM for that matter....as long as a higher level language helps better use of the onboard hardware and improves the flight performance... using something like C is not a problem at all....who wants fast ASM code that can only manage Gyro's well while the accels are sitting there for a formality...if the self level code works out using C the stability as in the software itself will suffice for the lower timing...Multi wii and APM are testiment to the fact that using C is as good as any platform written using ASM..also they ensure quick addition of code.. debuging and support for a host of new sensors which can be used with the board..using C adds flexibility and better work flow for the coder ..and also helps faster progress when it comes to addition of support for more sensors....also ASM can always be used in small snippets when the FC needs to spit out motor PWM or servo signals ..also handling ISR's can be done using ASM snippets for faster RISC processing ....I dont see any sense In making one's work more cumbersome by always going through the whole code for just some minor debugging or souce code modification....
..
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 06:59 AM
Stop me before I build again!
United States, NY, Albany
Joined Sep 2012
1,320 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Upup View Post
Have you checked the crash did not twist the motor to the right
Everything is eyeball'ed and appears level and straight ( which is more than I can say of some of my previous frames which worked well ).

The odd part is that M3 appears to react normally to changes in aileron and elevator, just not yaw.

Other oddity, I had to reprogram my ESC's last night as, out of the blue, some were showing brakes on and had reverted to li-xx from ni-xx but other, non-default, settings remained intact. Either I, or it, is going insane.

Either way, I'm dead in the water till this weekend at the earliest. Flying is off till Sandy blows over.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 07:05 AM
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Austria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akcopter View Post
I dont see a lower timing affect the flight quality on a multiwii or the APM for that matter....as long as a higher level language helps better use of the onboard hardware and improves the flight performance... using something like C is not a problem at all....who wants fast ASM code that can only manage Gyro's well while the accels are sitting there for a formality...if the self level code works out using C the stability as in the software itself will suffice for the lower timing...Multi wii and APM are testiment to the fact that using C is as good as any platform written using ASM..also they ensure quick addition of code.. debuging and support for a host of new sensors which can be used with the board..using C adds flexibility and better work flow for the coder ..and also helps faster progress when it becomes to addition of support for more sensors....also ASM can always be used in small snippets when the FC needs to spit out motor PWM or servo signals ..also handling ISR's can be done using ASM snippets for faster RISC processing ....I dont see any sense In making one's work more cumbersome by always going through the whole code for just some minor debugging or souce code modification....
..
You have good point.

Yes, I have multiWii and as well Kk2 ... and I can not notice any difference on flying my quad, expect ... autolevel is working better on MultiWii, plus my multiwii has Magnetometer that really fix my heading (something important to me, since I fly a small microQuad and non in FPV) ,..

So ... maybe go above 50hz has no sense, if having accurate control at 50hz is already good enough for stabilize a quad

Anyhow ... ASM vs Arduino ... it is like night and day ... but for me, if I need to pick up one, I prefer ASM ... Arduino has NO debugging at all ... has non standard C convention , etc etc ... it is popular, and due to this, you can find lot of source example ... but still ... is "amateur" level ... there has been done some aberration in name to make a sort of C++ language user friendly also for people that know nothing about coding

Different story it is using C from AVR studio ...

Anyhow ... KK2.0 code is done already in ASM ... I think he should stick with this for this board ... on the next board, he may think to use a different language .. in this case .. first he should use AVR studio 5 (4 is obsolete) ... and see if C is really make him his life more easy ...

Tchuss

e_lm_70

ps: I also own a Gluopilot board, there I used the RTOS, and Microchip MPLAB IDE ... there it is a totally different level ... real C code, real kernel, etc etc ... these chips should also be not much more expensive then ATmega chip ... also ... STM32 sound much more a new way forward ... but I don't know much the environment for it.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teccer1234 View Post
I've finally got my tri with the kk2,v1.2 board working perfectly so the last thing was to stop the vibrations with my key cam, I tried the usual methods and none worked very well, so my last effort was to try some sound insulation from the underside of the bonnet/hood off an old car, it worked perfectly, see the video I made yesterday.

http://youtu.be/j0rItmjEmu8

now every things ok for my winter break in Spain,

ray
Whoooowww Can share you mount ??
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 10:00 AM
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Joined May 2010
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Looks great teccer1234
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 11:16 AM
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United States, IN, Kokomo
Joined May 2008
613 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by teccer1234 View Post
I've finally got my tri with the kk2,v1.2 board working perfectly so the last thing was to stop the vibrations with my key cam, I tried the usual methods and none worked very well, so my last effort was to try some sound insulation from the underside of the bonnet/hood off an old car, it worked perfectly, see the video I made yesterday.

http://youtu.be/j0rItmjEmu8

now every things ok for my winter break in Spain,

ray
Great. Can you show a picture of the material? We may have different underhod material here.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 12:02 PM
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Greece
Joined Oct 2012
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2 days now, extremely strong wind!!!.... so some more testing inside the house... I wonder... i am raising PI and no visible vibrations.... (i am at 80/40 Gains..(PI)).. How 'up' am i supposed to go? Until i see vibrations as people say? Is it better to keep PI as much high as possible, or as low as possible? A reminder that i am using SK450 frame with Plush 30A (stock) and firmware 1.2 stock.... thanks in advance...
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 12:30 PM
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Joined Apr 2008
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Originally Posted by GSD View Post
2 days now, extremely strong wind!!!.... so some more testing inside the house... I wonder... i am raising PI and no visible vibrations.... (i am at 80/40 Gains..(PI)).. How 'up' am i supposed to go? Until i see vibrations as people say? Is it better to keep PI as much high as possible, or as low as possible? A reminder that i am using SK450 frame with Plush 30A (stock) and firmware 1.2 stock.... thanks in advance...
FOR INFO

My P&I settings

P gain 265
P limit 100
I gain 285
I limit 50

Self Leveling

P gain 65
P limit 30

Weight 34.9 oz without battery pack
I fly with 4006 pancake motors from HK. 560 kva
30 amp Plush ESCs
I fly with 4 cell 4000 Mah packs

Point is that different planes are going to require different settings. I got nervous when increasing the P gain but I finally did get the rapid oscillation at 280.

I just flashed my boards with the acc mod 1.2 firmware and as soon as this hurricane is over I will do my P&I settings again.


Sudsy
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 12:45 PM
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United States, TX, Spring
Joined Apr 2012
2,364 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70 View Post
You have good point.

Yes, I have multiWii and as well Kk2 ... and I can not notice any difference on flying my quad, expect ... autolevel is working better on MultiWii, plus my multiwii has Magnetometer that really fix my heading (something important to me, since I fly a small microQuad and non in FPV) ,..

So ... maybe go above 50hz has no sense, if having accurate control at 50hz is already good enough for stabilize a quad

Anyhow ... ASM vs Arduino ... it is like night and day ... but for me, if I need to pick up one, I prefer ASM ... Arduino has NO debugging at all ... has non standard C convention , etc etc ... it is popular, and due to this, you can find lot of source example ... but still ... is "amateur" level ... there has been done some aberration in name to make a sort of C++ language user friendly also for people that know nothing about coding

Different story it is using C from AVR studio ...

Anyhow ... KK2.0 code is done already in ASM ... I think he should stick with this for this board ... on the next board, he may think to use a different language .. in this case .. first he should use AVR studio 5 (4 is obsolete) ... and see if C is really make him his life more easy ...

Tchuss

e_lm_70

ps: I also own a Gluopilot board, there I used the RTOS, and Microchip MPLAB IDE ... there it is a totally different level ... real C code, real kernel, etc etc ... these chips should also be not much more expensive then ATmega chip ... also ... STM32 sound much more a new way forward ... but I don't know much the environment for it.
Your back you haven't been on in a while I missed you
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 01:09 PM
safer on the ground
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wilts, United Kingdom
Joined Jul 2006
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Originally Posted by pabmadi View Post
Whoooowww Can share you mount ??
well there's not a lot to it really, I tried the silicon tube method then I used some neoprene from one of my old wet suits, nothing worked but I saw some of the sound proofing rubber type material I took off an old motor, a sheet 1ft x18"x 1" thick so I thought I'd try that as it felt slightly softer than rubber foam or neoprene, I started with a strip of plywood 5"x 1,1/4" for the camera and lipo base then cut some of this material into 2 pieces 1,1/4" x 1/2"x 3/4"high and CA'd it to the base of the tri and to the strip of ply base either end, see the photos, first I used 2 zip ties loose just incase the CA pulled off, but loose enough that there was no contact with the ply base to carry vibrations down but during flight it must have been touching so now ignore the zip ties shown, I'm now using some wax thread around the bottom strip but again loose just in case the CA packs up at least the lipo & camera won't depart the tri

hope it works for you
ray
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 01:22 PM
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Australia, QLD, Meadowbrook
Joined Sep 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSD View Post
2 days now, extremely strong wind!!!.... so some more testing inside the house... I wonder... i am raising PI and no visible vibrations.... (i am at 80/40 Gains..(PI)).. How 'up' am i supposed to go? Until i see vibrations as people say? Is it better to keep PI as much high as possible, or as low as possible? A reminder that i am using SK450 frame with Plush 30A (stock) and firmware 1.2 stock.... thanks in advance...
I had to go to 85/0 before my quad started to shake, I now run 75/30 and it is solid. Don't stress to much, different multi's will require different settings. You will find the best for yours it will just take a little trial and error and a bit more time.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 01:26 PM
GSD
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Greece
Joined Oct 2012
197 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssoap View Post
FOR INFO

My P&I settings

P gain 265
P limit 100
I gain 285
I limit 50

Self Leveling

P gain 65
P limit 30

Weight 34.9 oz without battery pack
I fly with 4006 pancake motors from HK. 560 kva
30 amp Plush ESCs
I fly with 4 cell 4000 Mah packs

Point is that different planes are going to require different settings. I got nervous when increasing the P gain but I finally did get the rapid oscillation at 280.

I just flashed my boards with the acc mod 1.2 firmware and as soon as this hurricane is over I will do my P&I settings again.


Sudsy
Thanks for sharing your settings... i understand that even little different setup can have much different values... but i thought also that its possible to reach high PI only with flashed ESCs... So i will start raising these things!!!.... As soon as i think this is good enough i'll post a small video to hear your opinions...
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