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Old Aug 16, 2012, 05:08 AM
Ready to fly MRs
Sid3ways's Avatar
Swanton, OH
Joined Jul 2007
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I'm all for that. It bugs me though when people try to compare these frames when all they share is a rough visual design. It is not even an apples to apples comparison by any means. Buy this frame and go have fun with it. But don't sit and bash the real frame for being more expensive.
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 07:10 AM
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United States, NY, Rochester
Joined Jan 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolkiwikat View Post
Come on guys, cant we all just build frames and get along?
Kool....is really cool and his comment is right on!!

As a Senior Citizen (Old Dinosaur Grandpa) I do not understand why some comments are taken
so personally that someone's opinion becomes a personal insult. Hey, we are only compairing two
"different" multirotors, so let's just all get along nice....nice and get on with a positive discussion,
OK, boys???
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 07:26 AM
jab
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Look.. The dampeners are sold separate as spare parts for $75 each. Get four of them and you get pretty much identical behavior to the original.
And looking at the dampener PDF there is no rocket science involved. It is a very simple design (just like the rest of the cinestar frame/gimbal) with some custom cut CF parts and o-rings. Very easy to duplicate and even improve.

My point is that the high price point of the Cinestar system is mostly because of "made in USA", and perhaps also a strategic choice aiming for high-end customers.
So the price does not necessarily reflect the performance. Don't get me wrong, Cinestar's have great performance, but the design is dead simple. Anyone with tools and some experience can build similar performance much cheaper. So my problem is people having knee-jerk reactions to $500 "clones", automatically assuming they have inferior design and performance simply because they aren't priced high enough.
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 08:10 AM
Ready to fly MRs
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Swanton, OH
Joined Jul 2007
4,981 Posts
Yes the whole point of mine and Addidas post is that it simple isn't a $1000 increase because of a USA made frame.

The dampeners are $300, then you have the mounting plate on top of that. Not to mention this frame is made from 2mm thick center plate and the Cinestar uses 2.5mm plate for the center and the camera mount plate. 2.5mm plate is certainly more expensive in the quantity and grade of CF they use. Their CF is of the highest quality, I've only seen the Flexacopter match the grade of CF.

Judging all of that it is hardly even $500 or more so that is a sufficient cost for being made in the USA and being able to get spare parts shipped same day.

Regardless they are made for different purposes, just enjoy the hobby and quit putting down the Cinestar.
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jab View Post
Look.. The dampeners are sold separate as spare parts for $75 each. Get four of them and you get pretty much identical behavior to the original.
And looking at the dampener PDF there is no rocket science involved. It is a very simple design (just like the rest of the cinestar frame/gimbal) with some custom cut CF parts and o-rings. Very easy to duplicate and even improve.

My point is that the high price point of the Cinestar system is mostly because of "made in USA", and perhaps also a strategic choice aiming for high-end customers.
So the price does not necessarily reflect the performance. Don't get me wrong, Cinestar's have great performance, but the design is dead simple. Anyone with tools and some experience can build similar performance much cheaper. So my problem is people having knee-jerk reactions to $500 "clones", automatically assuming they have inferior design and performance simply because they aren't priced high enough.
100% correct!
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 07:04 PM
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United Kingdom, England, Addlestone
Joined May 2012
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My take on this thread is that it was started by people saying "what a joke" and "Cheap ass" and "waste of $$$" etc so its actually the Cinestar fans putting down the clone frame..And the people that dont have or want to spend the money for what could be considered expensive cinestar mearly defending their choice... Maybe the quality is slightly higher on the Cinestar but in my opinion (and thats all it is) it is overpriced. The cost of the dampners for instance is very high for what is involved and the materials used. Maybe if the cost weren't so high then there would be no place for a clone in the first place... and just for the record spares are available for the clone, and i bet i could get them faster from china than i could from USA and without the tax as everything coming from the states gets a hefty lump of tax/duty added..
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Adidas4275 View Post
WTH man.... you think that someone that works hard for their money and chooses to pay the real company in the USA who actually designed and developed their own rigs are snobs?

seriously? We all MUST have the lowest cost items or else we are "silver spoon" snobs.

What about customer service, spare parts, knowing something actually works and isnt just CF laminate over GF.

I personally think it is lame to buy something that is a blatant ripoff of someone else's hard work....


I dont know who you think you are, but man if I was Tabb I would have a hard time developing new gear for our industry if I met people like you

I'm a working man but i know a good deal when i see one and why pay some one over the top for one project its not rocket science if you save money on one project you have more money to go on the next project, I'm not a Rich man and i will hunt for a barging, and i don't waste money if Tabb dont whant to wast his time making more frames how cares some one out there will make a better and bigger frame and yes hong Kong will copy it every time, but if the price is right ill buy the real one until then ill buy the copy every time, its up to the real person to set the price right rather then asking for stupid money and expecting to get it off every one, its life and life goes on
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 07:27 PM
manual flying apologist
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United States, CA, Fresno
Joined Mar 2011
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man I hope English is your second language because that is the single longest sentence I have ever tried to read.

I don't even know what you are trying to say?



Also I dont think you have any idea how much it costs to design built, market, distribute and support a product.

If you think that Tabb is getting rich off FreeFly you are crazy. (I want the CineStar line to be cheaper as well, but I dont try to say that a clone frame is better than the real thing and then say people who buy the real one are stupid and spoiled)

There are many people in this industry that work their ASS off to help this community push the tech forward.

These guys set a price based on what they can afford to make them at....

x468.com, Rusty's Frames (AGLhobbies), Askman and Gary (TPPACKS.com), DJ (Photoshipone) and many many others.

They are not over priced, they are priced at what it costs to design, develop, market, produce and support their products.

I dont even think this thread should be about the stealing of IP but what it should be about...


it should be about the differences between the real one and the fake one...

like the thickness of the CF center plates, tensile and compression strength of the CF tubes, quality of hardware included, and availability of spares.
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 08:45 PM
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Lets all Calm down

This thread seems to be going in the wrong direction. It shouldn't be turning into a web based punch up.. Yes i think we can all agree the Real Cinestar uses higher grade materials and thicker plates etc, But the suggestion that the copy was a waste of money and a Joke was maybe what started it as some of us have spent our hard earned money on what we can afford, Im sure we'd all like to be driving Rolls Royces but thats never going to happen..
The facts are its VERY similar in design and will perform in a VERY similar way. Maybe to high end users the differences will show themselves but to the majority of users the differences dont outweigh the substantial costs savings. Its like anything thats designed and developed , if there is a market for cheaper versions they will be made, and as the tech becomes more widespread the prices will fall.
Its not Just Cinestar that will be in the sights of the cloners either as there are a few other brands out there that are stronging it with the prices they are charging. I think I saw that DW want something like $48 for a motor mount.. WTH.?
Maybe there is a positive to all this in that it may drive those companies to be more efficient and drive prices to a more realistic level. after all its not Rocket science is it.
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Old Aug 16, 2012, 09:18 PM
manual flying apologist
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United States, CA, Fresno
Joined Mar 2011
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yeah, i dont think (i could be wrong) that I ever said the fake is a POS.

but i do think mutlirotors and flybarless RC helis are on par with higher technical things.

We might think it is easy, but that is because (other than a few here) we are riding on the coat tails of the ones who did the hard work so we just have to buy some parts and plug them together.


I am fine letting this get back to relevant discussion...
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Old Aug 17, 2012, 05:13 AM
Ready to fly MRs
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Swanton, OH
Joined Jul 2007
4,981 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by HexaFlexa View Post
This thread seems to be going in the wrong direction. It shouldn't be turning into a web based punch up..
You guys keep going back and forth with us like we claimed the clone is "junk." The only person I see that said it and started all of the clone defenders was Estiavilla, direct your words to him. I just stepped in to clarify the differences in the frame which should be on-topic. Enjoy the clones all you want, I might pick one up myself to build a cheapo Octo for a fun flyer. Enjoy.
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Old Aug 17, 2012, 08:37 AM
jab
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Sid3ways, if you go back and re-read the first page of this thread. You can see the tone set, and understand why many of us felt the need to "defend" a $500 carbon octo.
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Old Aug 17, 2012, 12:11 PM
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Seattle, Washington, United States
Joined Mar 2003
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FWIW we are working on a laser targeting system which automatically identifies clone frames and vaporizes them...should be operational shortly

I realize there are different products for many different parts of the market. We build our products for a very specific segment of that market and to the highest quality possible.

Tabb
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Old Aug 17, 2012, 01:30 PM
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United States, MD, Annapolis
Joined Jun 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tabbytabb View Post
FWIW we are working on a laser targeting system which automatically identifies clone frames and vaporizes them...should be operational shortly

I realize there are different products for many different parts of the market. We build our products for a very specific segment of that market and to the highest quality possible.

Tabb
That's what I said, you have a niche market and people more than willing to pay for quality. I bought a chinese frame, but I wasn't looking for a clone version of something more expensive. I just wanted a decent frame for under $500. That it might be a cheap copy of something else is something I discovered after I bought it. Really I want it to look like the unique hexacopter that Russ built, and not like something else.

Russ
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Old Aug 17, 2012, 03:02 PM
manual flying apologist
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United States, CA, Fresno
Joined Mar 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tabbytabb View Post
FWIW we are working on a laser targeting system which automatically identifies clone frames and vaporizes them...should be operational shortly

I realize there are different products for many different parts of the market. We build our products for a very specific segment of that market and to the highest quality possible.

Tabb
it is great to see that you have a sense of humor with stuff like this. It would be easy to get mad.
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