SMALL - espritmodel.com SMALL - Telemetry SMALL - Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Jul 16, 2012, 05:13 AM
Registered User
Norfolk, England
Joined Sep 2001
7,760 Posts
Jim,
Sorry about that. Not so much criticism, more stroppy advice. I'd been trying to convince the SPAD guy that he was using too much power and you said you'd be doing the same thing - albeit at a lesser level. That, combined with being out of cigarettes was all it needed.

I'd definitely start off with 2s and a prop of around 11x7. Then, once we know it works as intended, go with what appeals to you.

Pete
PETERRAKE is offline Find More Posts by PETERRAKE
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Jul 16, 2012, 07:30 AM
rtibbetts
rtibbetts@hotm's Avatar
Central Florida
Joined Mar 2008
294 Posts
Whew, as a watcher of these wonderful builds I've come to the conclusion that the builder must make sure Peter doesn't run out of cigarettes
I tend to overpower the models I build. I always figured that is what the throttle control is for, although you are spot on that the WWII models generally require lots more then "scale flying" the WWI models. Unless you want to rip the wings off as some of the full scale aircraft had a tendency to do.
NIce work on the build!

RT
rtibbetts@hotm is offline Find More Posts by rtibbetts@hotm
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2012, 08:21 AM
Registered User
Norfolk, England
Joined Sep 2001
7,760 Posts
Never a bad idea, although I do try not to go 'off on one' too often. Something of a miscalculation on my part, I thought I had a pack more than I actually did.

So, to all and sundry, and Jim in particular, sorry for being a miserable old so and so (and other less printable terms). I was far less than tactful in pointing out my concerns.

Pete
PETERRAKE is offline Find More Posts by PETERRAKE
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2012, 09:20 AM
Neophyte hacker
portablevcb's Avatar
Albuquerque, NM USA
Joined Sep 2003
15,848 Posts
I am probably the last person to comment on having too much power. My first Rake design I used a sp480 instead of a sp400.

BUT, there is such thing as too much power, even if you do use the throttle lever. An example was the M-S AI I built. About 26oz if I remember right.

It had a bell motor in it (1100kV). I put in a 3s pack and a 10x7 prop. ONE notch of throttle and it took off. Landing was an 'on/off' deal. Off meant descent, on meant climb. It made the airplane horrible to fly. Switching to a 2s pack made it a pussycat, yet, still had the power to do loops from level flight.

And then there is the issue of full power. Several builders of Peter's planes in the past couple of years have reported uncontrolled climbs. They start to blame all kinds of things on the plane, bad wing incidence, bad CG, bad tail incidence, bad thrust angle, etc. The real problem is too much power.

So, please listen to Peter when he recommends a power system.
portablevcb is offline Find More Posts by portablevcb
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2012, 09:50 AM
What's 3D?
trumps's Avatar
Australia, WA, Ellenbrook
Joined Feb 2008
3,316 Posts
i know that when i built Peter's 40" Pup i was concerned with the minimal power system that i went with, it flys with a mere 54w/lb and does so beautifully, needs full throttle and about 25m to take off and a real gentle climbout, once up it cruises very nicely at half throttle, needs the nose dropped a bit for a loop, but it flys in a very scale manner, and is my favourite plane to fly because it really does fly on the wing, instead of being dragged around the sky due to the power system.
Peter Rake Pup 30 06 12 (4 min 51 sec)


To quote a great post by the much missed from these pages Vintage1,
"In the old days 50W/lb was considered well good enough. I've flown with 20, and a model like that will only take 20 to stay in the air. So that's 34 available to climb.

I've not been following this..what sized prop is on it?

As long as you have enough pitch speed, a putative 24 watts excess with a notional pack to slipstream 50% efficiency, gives you 17W excess.

1 watt per pound is about 44 feet per minute climb so that should see a climb rate of around 5-700 feet per minute. More than enough for calm air flying.

In general 100-200 FPM is real indoor/parkfly territory. Hard to do anything but level flight. 200-400 is acceptable if dull. With 400-800 you start to be able to loop and pull tight turns without losing height.

600 FPM is 10 feet per second. That's a very snappy climb rate. For a WWI model.

My advice is take it off slowly on the wheels, until you can feel it wants to fly., Then let it do so, controlling any excessive nose up until you have safe altitude. Don't try to haul it into a steeper climb until its got enough altitude and airspeed to explore the limits."

Cheers
Craig
trumps is offline Find More Posts by trumps
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2012, 08:08 PM
Registered User
JIMA's Avatar
New Boston, Texas, United States
Joined Jan 2003
2,691 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by PETERRAKE View Post
Never a bad idea, although I do try not to go 'off on one' too often. Something of a miscalculation on my part, I thought I had a pack more than I actually did.

So, to all and sundry, and Jim in particular, sorry for being a miserable old so and so (and other less printable terms). I was far less than tactful in pointing out my concerns.

Pete
Not a problem Pete. I was worried that i had done irrepairable damage. I know about the nicotine habit. I used a can of snuff a day for 30 years then quit about 2 years ago. Used the nicotine gum for two months to help with the withdrawal. If the mind is set it is possible to do. But it aint easy.

BTW tact sometimes dont get the point across. Sometimes you need a brick.

Jim
JIMA is online now Find More Posts by JIMA
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2012, 08:21 PM
Registered User
JIMA's Avatar
New Boston, Texas, United States
Joined Jan 2003
2,691 Posts
Craig,

I loved your video. Great flying, great photography, and a great model.

Do you have any video of the Bf 109 we got a quick shot of at the end?

Jim
JIMA is online now Find More Posts by JIMA
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2012, 11:29 PM
Registered User
United States, TN, Blountville
Joined Oct 2002
3,586 Posts
Peter, for those who can't settle for reasonable power tell them to go build a model of the Mucullocoupe by john Mcculloh and Jim & Brian Kimbell The Russian M14p radial of 400 hp in an enlarged Monocoupe 110 design. Or Steve Culps 360hp, using same MP14P engine design, acrobatic Sopwith Pup.
RAFster is offline Find More Posts by RAFster
Last edited by RAFster; Jul 16, 2012 at 11:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2012, 01:27 AM
What's 3D?
trumps's Avatar
Australia, WA, Ellenbrook
Joined Feb 2008
3,316 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JIMA View Post
Craig,

I loved your video. Great flying, great photography, and a great model.

Do you have any video of the Bf 109 we got a quick shot of at the end?

Jim
Cheers mate, the 109 is the new FMS 1400mm jobbie, i have a couple of vids of her in action, the first one is with my repainted Marseille's scheme, second one is after i with the stock paintjob. flys really nicely for an ARF foamie, bit of a handfull on the ground with the scale narrow track underarrage.
FMS 109f 30 06 12 (5 min 5 sec)

FMS New Bf109f flight number 4 (5 min 12 sec)

the wife is pretty handy with the video camera, and the guys and i down at the club do a fair bit of filming.

Cheers
Craig
trumps is offline Find More Posts by trumps
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 22, 2012, 10:33 AM
Registered User
JIMA's Avatar
New Boston, Texas, United States
Joined Jan 2003
2,691 Posts
Great videos. I enjoyed the Bethoven. Thought I was watcing Wings of the Luftwaffe for a minute.

Received a package from Callie Graphics yesterday. Will save pics fo the scheme until after painting. Callie puts out a really good product.

Covering has started. I am really enjoying using Polyspan. There wont be much pictures to see for the next week or so as most of my time will be spent puttong coats of lacquer on the covering to seal it. The fuse covering is already mostly done. I covered the open areas with Polyspan first the covered the sheeted areas with silkspan. I should have done it the other way round first as you can not sand Polyspan and I have some rough edges where the two come together. If I had put the silkspan on first I could have sanded the edges smooth first.

I am still looking for a method to simulate some covering stitching in 1/8 scale. The N17 does not have much, just an area around the front fuse. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I would really like to have this on the N17 as it is a very prominent feature.

Jim
JIMA is online now Find More Posts by JIMA
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 22, 2012, 01:12 PM
Registered User
Blacksburg, VA 24060 USA
Joined Feb 2000
3,217 Posts
Re too much power. I revived a Tiger Moth, but wasn't sure whether it took 2S or 3S, my notes were not clear.

So I tried 3S. The poor old Tiger Moth became a rocket. When I managed to throttle back to about 30%, it was a tractable airplane again, but handling the throttle from 0 to 30% was tricky for my old thumb. I didn't like that much power, and I don't think the Tiger Moth did.

So I reverted to 2S. Much happier airplane and pilot. Take-off was still snappy, climb was good, I was happy. It was a Tiger Moth again, and not a rocket.

Jim R. ...
... whose rocket days are far behind...
JRuggiero is offline Find More Posts by JRuggiero
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2012, 10:55 AM
Registered User
JIMA's Avatar
New Boston, Texas, United States
Joined Jan 2003
2,691 Posts
I haven't realized how long it has been since I last posted. Been too hot in the shop to do too much but I have been working on the covering and rib tapes. Will try to get some pix up later.

Jim
JIMA is online now Find More Posts by JIMA
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2012, 08:08 PM
Registered User
Norfolk, England
Joined Sep 2001
7,760 Posts
Jim,
Looks good mate. I like the idea of tracing paper rib tapes, I usually just use strips of that cheap, cream coloured masking tape. They too can be doped over to prevent lifting, although they usually take to Litespan well enough not to need it.
Just as well really because after around 45 years as a smoker I can't take dope fumes any more.

Pete
PETERRAKE is offline Find More Posts by PETERRAKE
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2012, 08:15 PM
Neophyte hacker
portablevcb's Avatar
Albuquerque, NM USA
Joined Sep 2003
15,848 Posts
Or you can be as crude as I am and leave off the rib tapes.
portablevcb is offline Find More Posts by portablevcb
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question Balsa selection for Peter Rake 33" Nieuport Platzian Scale Kit/Scratch Built 4 May 07, 2012 09:48 PM
Build Log Peter Rake IPS Nieuport Mono 65Chevelle Scale Kit/Scratch Built 139 Feb 08, 2009 09:18 AM
Sold Tritle 40 WS Nieuport 17 kit ZRS4 Aircraft - Electric - Airplanes (FS/W) 2 Feb 01, 2009 03:49 PM
Build Log Nieuport IV for IPS (designed by Peter Rake) BaZsiX Scale Kit/Scratch Built 56 Jun 24, 2007 04:00 PM
Nieuport N11 "Bebe"-- a Peter Rake design Zhack Scale Kit/Scratch Built 32 Nov 05, 2003 06:21 AM