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Old Jun 04, 2012, 02:10 AM
Lee Liddle
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Carrollton, Tx
Joined Dec 2006
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Mini-HowTo
New Life above 3.5kw for the Haoye 90mm-7blade...New Motor Building Info on Pg1 7/14

The BLOG

These new high blade count fans that have come to market, like the Jet Fan 90mm and the CS 90-12 have renewed my intrest in the 90mm fans. I mean, yes, the Midi and the 9305 are good fans but it seems that everyone has pretty much grown tired of the high revving, high pitched scream. I used to like it, but compared to the sound of the 9 to 12 bladed fans, the oldies loose out.

The higher loaded fans require lower kv ranges and better cooling for the motors.

About 9 months ago I bought a couple of the Suppo 3736 and 3740 motors thinking that they were going to have an OD of 37mm and would fit inside a 39mm motor tube. But when I got them, I found out that the 37mm is the OD of the motor`s stator and that the OD of the motors is about 44mm, an unusual size and way too big for most 90mm fans.

Another unusual characteristic of the motor is the shaft size. They have a 7mm shaft that is then turned down to 6mm for the output portion of the shaft. There aren`t many 7mm shaft adapters out there (none would be more accurate). Another roadblock

So after rigging up some Haoye 6mm fan adapters as sort of a combo extention/adapter and mounting the motors on a homemade standoff, I did some tests with the Midi rotor. Well, results were mixed.

The good was that the motors seemed to be able to handle all of the power that I could put through them ( I was able to do about 4kw with what I had to work with)

The bad things were numerous. Viberations at various rpms due to long unsupported adapters led to enough contact between the stator and the magnets on one motor that it broke a magnet. The Midi rotor at 4kw is spinning some high R`s , and outrunners are pushing their mecanical limits near 50k rpm. Also, with 8 poles, it takes a very fast talking esc (32pwm) to stay in sync above that magic 50k mark. That means expensive ESCs, because most only have 8k and 16k pwm options.

Extending the 7mm shaft for standoff operation wasn`t a problem, Mc Master-Carr has quality stuff readily available, but the 7mm size was a big problem. How do I deal with that? I could have the ends of the longer shafts turned down to 6mm, but that would add a lot of $ to the cost of the motor and those who know me, know that I`m looking for low cost options.

Too many issues...... I needed to move, and had other more pressing issues going on, so I bagged the motors and put them away for a while.

That`s where the new, higher loaded fans come in. Now, not only can you get good sound, but they develop their power at lower rpms. 40k is plenty to get big power out of these fans. So, out came the Suppo 37 motors again.

Over the last few weeks I`ve been problem solving and testing various kv/cell count combos against all of the data that Carl Rich gathered for us a few years ago on the Midifan. I have a shortcut on my desktop to his thread, what a great resource!! Thanks again Carl!

Well, it`s getting late, so here`s a teaser.

I have put together a fan that matches the Midi`s numbers for watts/thrust/efflux between the power levels of 3kw and 4kw. When I say matches, I mean the thrust and efflux speeds almost exactly match the Midi`s numbers at any power level between 3kw and 4kw. So there is your effiancy. The kicker is that the Midi is limited to about 4kw and below. The Haoye hybread (90mm with a cut down 100mm rotor) just gets going at3.5kw and keeps producing good usable power up through 6.5kw and beyond.!!!

Why is it better? Well, it`s powered by a $40 outrunner that can be rewound and/or rebuilt numerous times, not a, throw away when it burns up, inrunner. An inrunner that can cost up to $250 or so for the best, and well over $100 for the midrange units. But, that`s not the best part.

I have operated this fan at power levels exceeding 7.5kw with thrust over 13.5lbs and efflux speeds of 290mph!! Cost for the fan/motor/esc, < $150.

I`m not selling anything. I don`t have the time or energy for that. What I do plan to do with this thread over the Summer is to show how to put together a 90mm that you can custom taylor to meet your exact needs.

The first thing that I`m going to fly is a 7s 3kw unit that runs on a $30 esc. The efflux speed is about 215 and the thrust is somewhere around 9lbs. That`s a lot of go power for a total of $160 for motor/fan/esc/lipos.

So if you want to go fast, but you are on a tight budget, stay tuned.
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 02:45 AM
Lee Liddle
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Carrollton, Tx
Joined Dec 2006
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Reserved for Motor Combo Data....As more testing and data comes in, I`ll get it more organized, but for now I`m just going to list some of the motor choices and how they will stack up.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................
3736-1330kv http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ass_Heli_.html

Here`s a motor suggestion that should be good on 7s. Keep in mind that I haven`t tested this motor, but it should be good for 3kw in the 120a (3kw) range on 7s.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................

3740-900kv http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ner_910kv.html

I`m currently testing this stock motor in the new fan that I just assembled (pics on pg 5) .....link... http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=89

This motor will have a fairly large voltage range to work for various applications. I`ll list some numbers on voltage between 10s and 14s. Unfortunatly this has proven to be a popular KV choice so HK has jacked the price up to $45

43.2v, 91a, 3930w, 219 mph.................................................. .................................................. ..................
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........................................


3740-1180 kv http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...er_1180kv.html

Quick test

8s, 29v,115a, 3.3kw

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........................................
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .........................................

Something like this would very likely make a good 6s motor, and it has the smaller 5mm shaft



http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ner_1500W.html. .................................................. .................................................. ..................
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 02:53 AM
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San Jose, CA
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Lee,
You alway on the mission...
How much the fan weight for 90mm class with ESC and motor? Estimate.
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 03:18 AM
Lee Liddle
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Carrollton, Tx
Joined Dec 2006
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PARTS LIST and Supplier Links

I`ll be using this slot as a single location for what to get and where to get it.

Fan

The fan is, of course the old Haoye 3.5" 7 blade unit. Haoye also sells the 3.5" 6 blade which is the same shroud combined with a copy of the Midifan rotor. The 6 blade rotor is OK to use up to about 3kw safely, but needs more rpm to get there, so it`s more well suited for use with inrunners.


THE ROTOR

The stock 3.5" 7blade rotor works well and will be throughly tested in this thread. The only negative is that there is quite a large gap between the rotor tips and the shroud, which cuts into thrust/efflux speeds some, but makes it simple to set up and keeps the noise level down.

The Haoye 4" rotor cut down to fit the 3.5" shroud. This is what you want to use for high power set ups.

Advantages...
1) It`s super strong and I`ve run it at power levels approaching 8kw (YEP 8kw) in this shroud
2) The center hub of the 4" rotor actualy fits the 3.5" shroud better than the 3.5" rotor. The 4" center hub matches the aprox 42mm OD of the motor tube almost exactly, not to mention it matches the OD of out 37xx series Suppo motors.
3) Since it has to be cut down, it can be fitted with a very tight tip gap. Also I have noticed very little blade strech at high power levels. So you can set up nice tight tip gaps and it won`t rub at high speeds.

THE MOTOR

Here is a link to a chart showing all of the various motor sizes and KV options available in this line of motors. I will only be working with the 37XX size motors in this thread. Don`t be fooled by the Watt ratings listed for these motors, mounted in the standoff position and cooled by the efflux airflow, they are good for almost twice the power in stock condition, and when rewound with better copper, they can do even more.

http://www.himodel.com/electric/HiMo...740PRO-4T.html



MOTOR SHAFT MATERIAL

7mm shaft in a 4.125" length http://www.mcmaster.com/#2900A347

7mm shaft (3ft) much cheaper per inch and works well http://www.mcmaster.com/#8116K6

7mm id x 8mm od tubing http://www.mcmaster.com/#50415K172

This tubing is 20" for $28 + shipping. If you are going to do more than about 4 motors, it`s probably worth buying a whole piece, but if you just want enough for a few motors, I will sell it for $2 per inch (2" min, that`s enough for one motor) plus $1 to mail it in a regular envelope to the lower 48 states. I`ll eat the pp fee.



8mm PROP/ROTOR ADAPTERS

Rotor Adapters

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXMSG7&P=7

Adapter Nuts

GPMQ4733 3/8"-24 Aluminum E-Spinner Adapter ( Great Planes part)
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXUYL8&P=7


List in progress

MISC OTHER PARTS
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 04:46 AM
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England/uk
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90mm etc

Lee,
carry on the good work nice to hear from you again ,
cheers Euan.
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 08:33 AM
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Williamsville, NY, USA
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What do you do for spark suppression when you make the connection between the 7S battery pack and the ESC?
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 09:03 AM
Lee Liddle
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Carrollton, Tx
Joined Dec 2006
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Motor mods and rewinding

I`m going to try to cover the motor mods all in this post. If it gets too complicated I will move it to my blog where I can split it up and answer some questions that will help others to complete similar mods. So here we go.......

This is going to cover disassembly, changing out the shaft, and basic winding of this specific type of outrunner. That is a 12 tooth stator with 8 poles or magnets.
There is only one winding pattern that works on this type motor, so that will help keep it more streamilined.

Disassembly First 5 pictures

These Suppo motors come apart pretty easily, just take the snap ring off of the shaft and save the little brass washer that is behind it, then pull the bell off and put it in a baggie so that it won`t pick up and FOD.

You have to bolt some kind of tool to the base of the motor so that you can have leverage to twist and pull, working the base out of the stator. I found out that this tool needs smoe insulation on the outer parts, because it gets HOT! LOL

After the heating process, insert the stator down into the heat sink and tighten the vice just enough to keep the stator from spinning. Trial and error here, if it spins, just tighten a little more. If a few back and forth twists does not break the base loose, then go back and heat it some more. Once you get the base rotating inside the stator, start pulling and it will slowly work apart.

A bowl od water is handy for cooling down hot parts quickly. Then you can put the base in the bag with the bell. Removing the old wire isn`t too hard, because Suppo doesn`t coat the windings with a bunch of glue like some do. There are three seperate wire groups with two ends each, so you should have six ends to look at. Try to find the one that is on top of all the others. If you find the right one, unwrapping the wire can go pretty smoothly and quickly. If you grab just any wire and start pulling, it can be hard, frustrating and time consuming, so take a good look before you start. You`ll know when you get the right one.

Once the windings are off, clean the stator up. Sometimes some alcohol (rubbing alcohol!) and some q-tips help here. There will most likely be a few spots where the enamel has come off due to friction or excessive heat. A high temp enamel like motor paint should work well to replace lost enamel, but I usually just grab the medium ca and some kicker, so far it has worked well for me. It doesn`t hurt to even put some ca over the good enamel to make it a little thicker if you want to. This is the most common area where a short can happen during winding, so a little extra insulation helps.

Winding the Stator

OK, here`s the tricky part. First of all, for the sake of visual simplicity I only used one strand of 24g wire to wind this demo stator. Also I used three diff colors so it would be easier to see what is going on. A real motor will be wound with each phase being a group of wires, the size and number of the wires will vary depending on the number of winds each stator tooth will get. Basicly you want to put as much copper on the stator as you can get to fit without getting too rough with it and damaging the insulation,

I`m actualy winding each phase in reverse, starting with A4 (winding it CCW) and working CCW around the stator (winding each tooth CW). It can be done the other direction, starting with A1(winding it CW) and working CW around the stator (winding each tooth CW). The reason I do it like I do is that it is just easier to get the wire onto each tooth winding CCW and moving CCW. You just need to trust me on that. One wire isn`t a problem, but when you are trying to fill the stator to capacity it makes a big diff.

When you finish one phase it`s a good idea to mark each end A1, A4 ect. because once you have all 6 ends sticking up it gets confusing real fast. And the ends have to be joined as shown, or the motor will not run.

I suggest that you do this to start. Wind a motor as shown with just one strand of wire, like 24g or 22g. Go Ahead and put some 4mm bullets on it and hook it up to an old esc (a little 30a esc will work) and run it on 2s or 3s just to see if it will run. It won`t have any load on it so it will only draw a few amps, but it will run.

The first time I wound a motor that had just been a burned up paper weight an hour earlier, and saw it spinning like a top was very cool. If you get this far congratulations, you just rewound a motor.

The next step will be to wind a real motor that is full of copper and will out perform the stock motors all day long.
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 09:05 AM
Lee Liddle
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Carrollton, Tx
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Reserved for the actual motor wind pics. I will also use it to list suggested strand size and number for the various KV options
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 10:39 AM
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Lee, they increased the price of another dog on motor again...

sigh, the SUPPO 910 is now 45USD vs 37...we gotto keep HK from selling out to man..

On the 12s did you glue the blades to get them past 4000k watts?

Regards
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 12:48 PM
Lee Liddle
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Carrollton, Tx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erh7771 View Post
Lee, they increased the price of another dog on motor again...

sigh, the SUPPO 910 is now 45USD vs 37...we gotto keep HK from selling out to man..

On the 12s did you glue the blades to get them past 4000k watts?

Regards
LOL, HK is the man if you ask me.

Actually, I'm not taking about using the CS90-12 for the extreme numbers. More info tonight.
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 02:14 PM
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San Jose, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knife Liddle View Post
Yeah, this year is Mission 90mm LOL.

The 7s 3kw fan/motor/esc weighs about 22oz. The 5kw is more like 24oz because the motor is a little longer and the esc weighs more.

Gotta hit the sack, more soon.
Lee,
The Midi Pro rotor still had better over effecient because of motor selection.
The high count blade fan don't had much motor to play with and if you got one to work effecient. The weigh alway heavier than 36-39mm inrunner.
I ask Steve Neu to come up the motor run effecient around 35k-40K rpm to spin this high count blades and kept the motor light as possible.
When I get the motor. I join you fine tuning the effecient.
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 02:33 PM
Lee Liddle
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Carrollton, Tx
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I hear ya Tam. You're right that weight is a factor also. But, so is price. The fan combos that you put together are some of the highest quality units that are available, but for me and many others,price is a big part of the decision too.

Sure I can afford a couple of your fans with Steve's motor, but at $60 for a fan and motor, I can have as many as I want and more than I need.

Stalin once said Quantity has a quality all it's own That's my philosophy Comrade!
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knife Liddle View Post
I hear ya Tam. You're right that weight is a factor also. But, so is price. The fan combos that you put together are some of the highest quality units that are available, but for me and many others,price is a big part of the decision too.

Sure I can afford a couple of your fans with Steve's motor, but at $60 for a fan and motor, I can have as many as I want and more than I need.

Stalin once said Quantity has a quality all it's own That's my philosophy Comrade!
When come to price....the experience can built their own unit to make it safe for less.
I agree....but look the pass history.
How many don't had the skills to do safe and get hurt?
Hope you can lead them to do it right.
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 02:50 PM
Lee Liddle
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Carrollton, Tx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamjets View Post
Lee,
The Midi Pro rotor still had better over effecient because of motor selection.
The high count blade fan don't had much motor to play with and if you got one to work effecient. The weigh alway heavier than 36-39mm inrunner.
.

I`ll debate you on that one.

First, there are three diff lengths of the 37mm stator Suppo motors, the 3730, 3736, and 3740. They weigh from 11oz up to about 14oz, not that heavy and I`m convinced that the 3740 can handle up to 6kw in the standoff position.

They come in factory kv options from 530 up to about 2200, plenty of stock options, and they can be rewound to handle even more power and with an almost unlimited number of kv options.

So show me a 36-39mm inrunner that weighs less than 14oz and can produce over 6kw of power. Now that is a very short list of motors for sure.

In this thread, I`m going to show how to set up a fan with simple skills and tools.

AND, I`m going to show how simple it is to disassemble and rewind these motors to get a bulletproof motor with kv that you need. Turn a 2200kv into a 500kv if you want to. If you don`t like it, make it a 575 or a 650, whatever you need.
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 02:53 PM
Lee Liddle
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Carrollton, Tx
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As far as saftey goes, I`ll show how to do it right. But in the end, we are each responsible for our own safety.

I`m sure that some will blow up fans as a result of this thread, but only if they don`t follow instructions properly.

Believe me, before I get into the fan setup part of the thread, there will be BIG RED POST listing the danger involved and proper safety precautions that we should all use every time we fire up a fan, whether it`s on the bench or in an airframe.

Time to head back to work.
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