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View Poll Results: Is a 15cm (6") aircraft with a 10g payload possible
yes 42 93.33%
no 3 6.67%
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 11:58 AM
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United States, FL, West Palm Beach
Joined Jun 2001
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All I was saying is that the 6" threshold can be had with "cheap" off the shelf items. We did it all the time the above components also went into a 5.5" plane that flew very well.

Other than the camera/transmitter system our total plane cost was not much more than 150$ that included very expensive (comparatively) drive motors at about 30-50 a pop
Toss in a nice highfreq speed control a gws receiver and somewhat lightened hs50’s and you have a 6” mav. But there are far lighter servos, receivers and speed controllers out there now than what we used/had access to 2 years ago
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 12:00 PM
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Gainesville, Fla
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Sorry it seems someone forgot to log out of their rczone account at work. The above post is mine.

also since MAV is a new buzzword it's use is stretched and pulled but generally speaking you can say any plane smaller or approaching 6" is max dimension. A 12" plane is not a MAV
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 12:26 PM
in persuit of low wing loading
Gordon Johnson's Avatar
Boston, Mass
Joined May 2001
6,428 Posts
Be careful about the Smart Tools (Park Flight) calculator. It has a cell to input the coeficient of lift, yet that value is not used in the computations. This means it assumes you have a coefficient of lift of 1.0, which you almost certainly do not. This error has been brought to the attention of Larry Park months ago and it remains unfixed.

You can go right to the source and read the article "Building for Indoors" by Jef Raskin in the free December issue of RC Microflight which has the formulas and they can easily be put into a spreadsheet.

Gordon
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 12:26 PM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
4,516 Posts
Matt,

Gear is going through a real revolution right now. You can do things now you couldn't do at all two years ago.

I have a 3 channel, 2 servo (not actuator) radio system with built in motor control that weighs 5.4 grams (with wiring, plugs, antenna); two years ago, each servo was heavier than that. It only weighs 11.4 grams including a 2-cell battery pack.

A four channel system with 3 servos and ESC comes in at ~8 grams.

I could even shave more weight off these by hard-wiring all the parts and eliminating connectors, shortening wires, using smaller LiPolys, etc., but the the gear is still in stock condition.

Smaller radios and ESCs are coming, the tiniest servos can still be shrunk some. I really think you can do some real magic with off-the-shelf items. Go for it.
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 12:36 PM
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Bolton,England
Joined May 2003
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Kallikrates... What motors did you use ?

Piers
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 02:03 PM
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Gainesville, Fla
Joined Aug 2002
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2 years ago I think it was dc5 2.4's(as seen still in some Korean designs)
then we moved to maxon re10's (think firefly in a less common winding minus the gearbox)

as we get smaller we are experimenting with new smaller motors. And slow getting prop development going.
since right now the motor is the heaviest individual component in the planes.

As a result of new lighter components our older 6" designs are very easy to fly (even mild aerobatics) as long as you have a fast eye for them, or if onboard video is fed through our visual guidance system any layman who's never flown an rc plane can fly them
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 02:58 PM
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sub 5" eh? That's impressive. My intention is to shoot for 1hour endurance, so I guess I'll be playing it right to the limit... Anyway I'm after weight, wing area, cruise speed, endurance, and any other data like that you can give me for this data base. Then I can actually get to the hardware stage, and hopefully have a new toy to play with!

Matt

PS - I wanna put a video camera in it too, so if you've got any data on small video cameras for this sort of thing, that would also be appreciated. Not to mention some costing data. Yeah I know, this is a very long "PS"...

PPS ( ) thanks guys!
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 04:32 PM
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Bolton,England
Joined May 2003
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Errm this is kind of a random list of MAV related stuff ive asmbled over the last couple of months & a list of a few UK shops.

Piers


Micro Air Vehicles - Toward a New Dimension in Flight
http://www.darpa.mil/tto/mav/mav_auvsi.html

DAPRA - Paper MAV - some info on wiehgt of parts on Black Widow
http://www.darpa.mil/DARPATech2002/p...WilsonSBIR.pdf

http://www.darpa.mil/body/newsitems/...et_flight2.pdf

Jason's Research
http://www.mil.ufl.edu/~number9/index.shtml

The Incomplete Guide to Airfoil Usage
http://www.aae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/aircraft.html

Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)
http://www.darpa.mil/

MAV Multidisciplinary Optimization Report
http://aemes.aero.ufl.edu/~issmo/mav/UF-98/UF-MDO.pdf

DAPRA - Paper - Power options
http://www.darpa.mil/dso/thrust/matd...lson_part1.pdf
http://www.darpa.mil/dso/thrust/matd...lson_part2.pdf
http://www.darpa.mil/dso/thrust/matd...lson_part3.pdf
http://www.darpa.mil/tto/MAV/mav_auvsi.html

APRA - Paper - MAV
http://www.darpa.mil/darpatech2002/p...s/wilsonsb.pdf

MAV SETS ENDURANCE FLIGHT RECORD - 2002
http://www.darpa.mil/body/newsitems/pdf/wasp.pdf

Towards Autonomous Flight for Micro Air Vehicles
http://www.cnel.ufl.edu/files/1018377332.pdf

University of Notre Dame Mav competition Site
http://www.nd.edu/~mav/competition.htm

Lehigh University Micro Aerial Vehicle
http://www.lehigh.edu/~inmav/

The Arizona State University Micro Aerial Vehicle 2000 Competition
http://www.eas.asu.edu/~uav/main.html

THE NRL MITE AIR VEHICLE
http://www.cs.uwyo.edu/~wspears/papers/nrl.mite.pdf

SUPAERO MAV
http://www.supaero.fr/page-perso/clu...ex_anglais.htm


Personal Website - home made MAv's
http://home.megapass.co.kr/%7Eshaprol/em64.htm
http://home.megapass.co.kr/%7Eshaprol/em72.htm

Florida Uni Sci Papers - Some relate to MAV
http://www.aero.ufl.edu/~cfdweb/publication2.html

http://rgp.ufl.edu/publications/expl.../extracts.html

http://www.aero.ufl.edu/~bfc/html/mav_mems.htm

http://www.tinywireless.com

http://www.blackwidowav.com/

http://www.maxonmotor.co.uk


UK Shops

http://www.indoor.flyer.co.uk/
http://www.e-flight.co.uk/
http://www.iceturbo.btinternet.co.uk/microcamera.html
http://www.falconmodels.uk.com/index.html
http://www.freeflightsupplies.co.uk
http://www.sussex-model-centre.co.uk/
http://www.alshobbiesstore.com
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 07:05 PM
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Gainesville, Fla
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Here is one of last years endurance mav designs (no payload) unfortunately it didn't handle the wind well (it was really bad and to launch into the wind meant throwing it at the video stations and crowd) on competition day. The ruler lies a little because the max dimension from the tip of the prop to the lowest vertical surface was about 4.5" We've taken a new approach to this years design but I canˇ't and won't post images of it here because the competition also reads this site just wait a few months


Since most of theinformation is public here are images from this past competition in april
The germanteam impressed me with their great inflight stablization hardware and ability to overcome switching frequencies during the night (they flew european)
Lehigh did great despite no rcpilots on the team their only experience was flight sims and MAVs
the koreans had the best design out there and would have won endurance were it not for a tiny pilot error
calpoly came really close to the target but couldn't get it in their sights.
endurance scores were time/maxdim^3 the image target was 500m away downhill.
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 07:55 PM
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Pook's Avatar
Bolton,England
Joined May 2003
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Kallikrates, is it the University of Florida's team you part of ?

Although the plane you show above has a vertical fin above and below the wing. Most of the designs seem to have them below the wing and I've not been able to come up with a reason for this that sits well with me, I was thinking posibly some sort of pendulum effect or is it just with a sort of fusalage under the wing already if the fin was on top it would increase the max dimention..

Piers
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 09:51 PM
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Gainesville, Fla
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The fin was added to counter act the tourqe rolling effect caused by the overly large power system needed to get to flying speed, and the lack of available under the wing area available with that fuse design, the top one has no controll surface.

As for max dimension It's better to think of it as the diameter of the smallest sphere the whole plane would fit in notice the curved trailing edge. It's skewed a little because of the angle of the photograph
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 01:54 PM
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MSC Rödinghausen, Germany
Joined Feb 2001
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Matt,

the included picture shows the one of my models which comes closest to these 6" of wingspan. It actually has 8" of span, weighs 26g and is a very simple construction. Basically it is an 1/3 scale Drenalyn. Maybe it is an idea for a simple start. That's a D cell for comparison.

Regards, Jochen
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 01:59 PM
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Keennon's Avatar
California
Joined Oct 2002
410 Posts
Jochen- looks good. I might be a handful to fly with the large control surfaces, but will be aerobatic in roll axis. You might find it has a natural rolling oscillation which is usual for very low aspect ratio wings. You might experiment with different size vertical fins, and maybe on the bottom instead.
Good luck.
-Matt Keennon
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:49 PM
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MSC Rödinghausen, Germany
Joined Feb 2001
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Actually it is a quite stable flier, though quite responsive around the roll axis indeed. See a short video here:

drenalyn.wmv

Right-click, choose "Save as ...", then use mediaplayer. The video has no sound. BTW, both planes are IR controlled, the other one is my "Phoenix Mite".

The original Drenalyn plan is here:
http://www.lecreusot.net/aeromodelis...nalyn/plan.htm

Regards, Jochen
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 03:03 PM
in persuit of low wing loading
Gordon Johnson's Avatar
Boston, Mass
Joined May 2001
6,428 Posts
Slightly off topic, but there is another area of development that is not MAV. Instead the emphasis is on very slow flying automous flying vehicles. The planes tend to be larger, and much lighter than the MAV's which are oriented towards flying outdoors. These indoor planes are intended for places like train stations, sports domes, etc. Here is a site for a doctoral student at Drexel University in Philadelphia who is doing his dissertation on this.

Gordon
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