HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Jul 03, 2012, 04:02 PM
Registered User
Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Joined Oct 2004
2,580 Posts
Not knocking RC George ... as I said .... 'different directions'

I just find it hard to visualise a Senator weighing seven ounces.
Applehoney is offline Find More Posts by Applehoney
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Jul 03, 2012, 04:09 PM
Registered User
United Kingdom, England, Lancs
Joined Sep 2006
320 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Blink View Post
Which varnish, Bob? It's just that I'm just about sold on the idea of mylar & Esaki for the Ajax, and I think it's the Ronseal Diamond Hard Clear that people are using, but I'm not sure. I've still got a bottle of Johnson's Klear from way back when which I would think would do the same job - though its acrylic based rather than PU.....

Senator's looking fine - that's a verrrry nice looking wing!
Yes CB the Ronseal is what I use. I thin it a little with water first then paint it onto the mylar with soft brush. The technique is a little different from using dope as once the varnish is dry it cannot be softened again. It's a matter of right first time!!
I don't know how familiar you are with tissue over mylar so I won't presume to say any more, but would be happy to answer any questions.
Your Ajax is looking fine by the way and I'm following with great interest.
Raf_Bob is offline Find More Posts by Raf_Bob
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 01:42 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
South-west France
Joined Sep 2007
4,775 Posts
The varnish I use is a French one of course, so I don't know what the exact UK equivalent is, but it is water based and that is very important, I wouldn't recommend using anything else. Unlike Bob I don't brush varnish onto the mylar, but spread the tissue panel over, spray with water to wet it thoroughly (or, and this works equally well, "drag" the tissue panel over a shallow water bath - surface tension holds it in contact - hang it from the end of the bench to drip a little and then "flop" it onto the model) then gently ease it all straight to get the wrinkles out. After that I brush a coat of varnish on, starting in the centre and working out, then trim and varnish the edges then leave it to dry - about an hour - before doing the next panel. I think it is important to remember that, unlike when using dope, the only shrinkage you are going to get is from the water, so you need to get the finish right with the first coat, a subsequent coat will not get shrink any wrinkles out.

This method works for me, so I stick to it, but I am sure there are other ways of skinning this particular cat, so whatever works for you. If in doubt, try a test piece first is sound advice though.

Jim; I know - just indulging in a little reciprocal "chain yanking" from "the dark side" BTW, was browsing an old MA plans catalogue yesterday and came across one of yours from way back - Walkin' Shoes. Would make a nice lightweight R/C thermal soarer! Now that WOULD be a floater.
Sundancer is online now Find More Posts by Sundancer
RCG Plus Member
Old Jul 04, 2012, 03:10 AM
Registered User
United Kingdom, England, Lancs
Joined Sep 2006
320 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancer View Post
, unlike when using dope, the only shrinkage you are going to get is from the water, so you need to get the finish right with the first coat, a subsequent coat will not get shrink any wrinkles out.

True, so it's specially important to get the mylar tight and wrinkle free. Any imperfections will show as will overlaps and areas where the mylar doesn't cover (such as sheeted areas). Also edges cannot be re-softened with thinners as with dope. I trim the wet tissue with a very sharp blade (the blade from a cheap disposable razor). Another way to neaten off is to let the tissue dry then trim to a small overhang and brush on thinned balsaloc before sticking down with a covering iron. The quality of the tissue is very important and Esaki is the best I've come across. I have some stuff called Starspan and this works well too, my only objection to being that the colours are very weak. I suspect it would make a good base for a sprayed finish but have never tried it.


This method works for me, so I stick to it, but I am sure there are other ways of skinning this particular cat, so whatever works for you. If in doubt, try a test piece first is sound advice though.
Again this is (IMHO) the best way to master the technique. No need for a special structure as anything with open areas will do.
Incidentally, I replied to Colonel Blink that I use Ronseal Diamond Varnish but when I built the Wren for the last build-off I used a semi gloss Ronseal Quick varnish and it worked perfectly. Not sure if it's the same stuff with a different label but it is water based and seems quite ok.
Raf_Bob is offline Find More Posts by Raf_Bob
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 03:22 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
South-west France
Joined Sep 2007
4,775 Posts
Quite right about the tissue Bob, I wouldn't now use anything but Esaki, it works fine with light Modelspan but unfortunately I only have a few bits of this left. I do have a good few sheets of heavyweight Modelspan though (bought up the local model shop's stock when I heard they were stopping making coloured tissue!), but have never used this over mylar. I might try it on a big model, but I think the best way to go with this type of finish for bigger models is to use doculam instead of mylar and stick to the light tissue on top. That's what I have on my Sopwith Triplane and it is very tough and still light.

Quite a lot of the tissue which is sold these days is pretty useless, no wet strength, very little shrinkage and colours that either go blotchy and/or fade quickly.
Sundancer is online now Find More Posts by Sundancer
RCG Plus Member
Old Jul 04, 2012, 04:24 AM
RFJ
Registered User
RFJ's Avatar
Northern Ireland
Joined Dec 2004
1,600 Posts
Quote:
came across one of yours from way back - Walkin' Shoes
February 1958. I make it about 120 riblets

Ray
RFJ is online now Find More Posts by RFJ
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 04:49 AM
Registered User
United Kingdom, England, Lancs
Joined Sep 2006
320 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancer View Post
Quite right about the tissue Bob, I wouldn't now use anything but Esaki, it works fine with light Modelspan but unfortunately I only have a few bits of this left. I do have a good few sheets of heavyweight Modelspan though (bought up the local model shop's stock when I heard they were stopping making coloured tissue!), but have never used this over mylar. I might try it on a big model, but I think the best way to go with this type of finish for bigger models is to use doculam instead of mylar and stick to the light tissue on top. That's what I have on my Sopwith Triplane and it is very tough and still light.

Quite a lot of the tissue which is sold these days is pretty useless, no wet strength, very little shrinkage and colours that either go blotchy and/or fade quickly.
Agree entirely about "modern" tissue. I have, though used heavy Esaki over mylar and it worked fine. Gives a very strong finish but on the heavy side for small models. I've never used doculam but since I've decided to keep to the smaller, lightweight type models (mainly for space reasons) it would seem to be unsuitable for my purposes.
Raf_Bob is offline Find More Posts by Raf_Bob
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 06:25 AM
Registered User
United Kingdom, England, Lancs
Joined Sep 2006
320 Posts
Started applying tissue to wing underside. Used techniques detailed in previous posts.
Raf_Bob is offline Find More Posts by Raf_Bob
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 07:05 AM
So I'M meant to be in control?
Colonel Blink's Avatar
Ilkley, West Yorkshire, UK
Joined Nov 2008
3,615 Posts
Thanks all for the pointers, and apologies to Bob for temporarily hijacking his thread. My knowledge of the mylar & tissue technique is only from reading - so the past few posts have just about doubled my previous knowledge! The Johnson Klear I have is water based acrylic - but I've had it since Margaret Rutherford played Heidi, so I may just fork out for some Ronseal - I feel a bit better now I find you can buy a 250ml pot rather than forking out 35+ for 2.5 litres

Thanks for the positive comments about the Ajax, Bob! It really means something when you experienced chaps make posts like that.
Colonel Blink is offline Find More Posts by Colonel Blink
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 08:08 AM
Registered User
United Kingdom, England, Lancs
Joined Sep 2006
320 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Blink View Post
Thanks all for the pointers, and apologies to Bob for temporarily hijacking his thread. Not at all! It's great to hear from you. Post as much as you like.


Thanks for the positive comments about the Ajax, Bob! It really means something when you experienced chaps make posts like that.
..

Experience strictly limited! Mostly slope soaring. I'm finding the application of electrocution a bit of a challenge but a really rewarding one.

For real experience see George!!
Raf_Bob is offline Find More Posts by Raf_Bob
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 04, 2012, 10:07 AM
Registered User
Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Joined Oct 2004
2,580 Posts
>Walkin' Shoes. Would make a nice lightweight R/C thermal soarer! Now that WOULD be a floater.

Never use the 2-piece wing suggested.. bad suggestion. Am told wings fold .

It is a floater 'as is'. I have an 80% version - had to reduce to meet NFFS Classic Glider rules (wanted no limits but got outvoted ) and at 11.5 ounces it drifts around nicely. Escaped once when d/t timer failed, tracker told me it was still circling 45 minutes later when I had to return to airfield to conduct giving of awards. Retrieved it miles away next morning after driving around western New York with an antenna stuck out car window until a signal was found.

A year ago I received a movie clip from Switzerland from a person flying the fullsize one as a theral soarer - was very succesful.

Pics - the original, from a transparency, and the new - fifty years later
Applehoney is offline Find More Posts by Applehoney
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 05, 2012, 02:27 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
South-west France
Joined Sep 2007
4,775 Posts
Really nice gliders Jim. What did the big one weigh - and did it have much lead in the nose? If it did a R/C version need only weigh the same and would stay up on nothing. I flew a few converted F/F designs when BARCS used to run a "Vintage League" for R/C soaring, and whilst obviously limited in much wind, in the right conditions they could - and often did - outfly hi-tech modern models.

Re tissue, I received a PM from AlexVK2KR in Oz which is worth sharing, I don't know whether The Hallmark mentioned is the same as the UK chain:

"I noticed your comment on the lack of suitable tissue these days,
I tested many years ago with the same conclusion BUT
found that Hallmark tissue has good colour fastness and
wet strength. It is similar to what used to be medium weight
tissue of old.

many colours to choose from including silver (and puce pink),
and have been scrounging many newsagents and gift shops for years
to stock up.

I will be trying the tissue over Mylar for the first time
with the water based polyurethane. Previously
I had the tissue under laminating film, water shrunk
and then the film over the top with the heat glueing
the 2 layers together."
Sundancer is online now Find More Posts by Sundancer
RCG Plus Member
Old Jul 05, 2012, 02:22 PM
Registered User
United Kingdom, England, Lancs
Joined Sep 2006
320 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Applehoney View Post
>Walkin' Shoes. Would make a nice lightweight R/C thermal soarer! Now that WOULD be a floater.
What a lovely machine that is. I've drooled over the design off and on for several years.

Back to the Senator. Fin/rudder is nearly complete. Needs a cheat line between the colours and a little finishing off plus a spray of varnish to enhance the finish.
I did an "ooh silly" with the tailplane by completely forgetting it needs two small sub-fins! Since it's covered now it's going to be a tricky job to fit them and still have a bit of strength. Good job I'm a fully experienced brain surgeon....
Raf_Bob is offline Find More Posts by Raf_Bob
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 05, 2012, 02:50 PM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
South-west France
Joined Sep 2007
4,775 Posts
Nice Bob.
Sundancer is online now Find More Posts by Sundancer
RCG Plus Member
Old Jul 06, 2012, 12:25 AM
Registered User
Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Joined Oct 2004
2,580 Posts
> What did the big one weigh - and did it have much lead in the nose?

Aww.... c'mon now George, get real! Can you remember what one of your models weighed 56 years ago .... or how much lead you poured into the nose? I doubt I weighed the airplane and certainly not the ballast. Wasn't heavy, I guess; I had a comment from Britland three weeks ago from someone who said he was 'mesmerised' watching a WS cruising around over a contest site recently.... brings a warm feeling after so many years.
Applehoney is offline Find More Posts by Applehoney
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Build Log Britkit Build Off May 2012-31/12/2012 - Keil Kraft Sportster x1.8 Sundancer Vintage & Old-Timer Designs 66 Aug 17, 2013 10:45 AM
Build Log KK Gipsy for Britkit build off kkphantom Vintage & Old-Timer Designs 150 Mar 30, 2013 08:37 AM
Discussion "Britkit" Build Off April 2012 - 31/12/2012 Sundancer Vintage & Old-Timer Designs 303 Jan 01, 2013 03:47 PM
Build Log "BritKit" Build Off 2012 - Veron Phoenix RFJ Vintage & Old-Timer Designs 37 Jun 08, 2012 05:28 AM
Discussion Model "Build-Off" Like TV Biker Build-off E-Challenged Scale Kit/Scratch Built 171 Jan 04, 2007 07:54 PM