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Old May 13, 2012, 09:02 AM
Graham Dyer
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Johannesburg, South Africa
Joined Jul 2003
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A little disapointed in my Gens Ace 25C 2200mAh...

Somewhat disappointed in my Gen's Ace 2200 25C packs, I bought 2 3S packs in February 2011 based on comments and recommendations here on RCG. I'm drawing 25A - 35A max in a couple of planes and fly never below 10.3V under load using Hitec receiver telemetry. Charged always at 2.2A with a Turnigy Accucel 8150 which under charges all packs a little, terminating at about 4.17V per cell.

I've now had 70 flights on each pack and am able to put only about 1000-1200mAh (~50%) back into these packs, they also don't hold their voltage like before, going to 10.6V half way through the flight whereas when newish they never went below 11.4V at the same point. I was expecting at least 200 cycles from these packs but there's no way they're going to even make 100. One good thing: they are still as brick hard as when I first got them, no puffing.

They've generally not been stored at full voltage although sometimes have been charged for a week or so before flying.

In comparison I have 2 x Turnigy 5000 25C 3S packs that have had in excess of 170 discharges each and are taking 4000mAh on recharge and they are still holding 10.9V under 60A load. They have been treated well (charge - 5A/discharge - ave 40A, max 60A), have puffed slightly but continue to perform acceptably for their age/price.

Can't quite understand why my experience has been so poor with the Gens Ace as they've had no abuse at all. Maybe 10.3V is too high a cutoff voltage or I got two dud packs?

Attached are a graph from the last discharge of each pack, used in a quadcopter at around 14A average load - 959 & 1207 mAh discharged from full to 10.3V
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Old May 13, 2012, 09:27 AM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Quote:
They've generally not been stored at full voltage although sometimes have been charged for a week or so before flying.
Perhaps you meant Storage instead of Full voltage.

LiPolys should spend as little time at Full as possible.

Quote:
Maybe 10.3V is too high a cutoff voltage or I got two dud packs?
10.3 LVC under a fairly heavy load should be OK however the mAh required to recharge is a better indication of capacity used than a voltage reading.

It is best to limit discharge to 80% of capacity thus a 2200 should only require 1760 mAh torechargare and yes this number will drop as they lose capacity.

The max cycles I have on a Gens Ace is a 3S 2200 with 139 and it is still doing well. I have not done a capacity test recently but flight times and performance are still very similiar to same as when new.

I have several 3S 1000 with between 20 and 50 flights on them and while still fairly new are doing well. Overall these GensAce are so inexpensive that I do not expect them to last hundreds of flights. If they do that would be great but I have never gotten hundreds of flights from low cost Lipolys.

Quote:
One good thing: they are still as brick hard as when I first got them, no puffing.
Perhaps due to the fact that many if not all GensAce in fact have aluinum plates protecting the outside faces of the cells.

Charles
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Old May 13, 2012, 09:57 AM
Graham Dyer
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Johannesburg, South Africa
Joined Jul 2003
701 Posts
Thanks for the reply Charles, I partially was encouraged to buy them originally by some of your favourable remarks. They haven't spent that much time at full voltage as mentioned perhaps a week being the longest at full charge between flights.

I think I would've been less disappointed if they'd lasted 150 flights rather than the 60-70 I got, I guess I was just expecting more. Turnigy 20C's would've got me the same.

Their price is not bad but buying from outside the US we get hammered on shipping, the shipping cost on those two packs was close to their total purchase price.

What's your recommendation for budget packs now? Still Gens Ace? Haiyin?
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Old May 13, 2012, 03:58 PM
Expo/DualRates = Lack of Skill
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San Diego, CA
Joined Mar 2009
790 Posts
I wouldn't keep lithium polymer batteries fully charged for more than a few hours.

One reason they don't seem to puff may be the aluminum plates Gens Ace like to put on the outside cells.

What is the voltage of the batteries before charging?
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Old May 13, 2012, 04:25 PM
Brutalizer
United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Nov 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
Perhaps due to the fact that many if not all GensAce in fact have aluinum plates protecting the outside faces of the cells.

Charles
The aluminum plate on the Gens Ace are very thin(about 1mm). The flexing action from a puffed pack could still easily bend the plates as if they were paper under the right conditions.
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Old May 14, 2012, 08:11 AM
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United Kingdom, England, Norwich
Joined Aug 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pardus View Post
Somewhat disappointed in my Gen's Ace 2200 25C packs, I bought 2 3S packs in February 2011 based on comments and recommendations here on RCG. I'm drawing 25A - 35A max in a couple of planes and fly never below 10.3V under load using Hitec receiver telemetry. Charged always at 2.2A with a Turnigy Accucel 8150 which under charges all packs a little, terminating at about 4.17V per cell.

I've now had 70 flights on each pack and am able to put only about 1000-1200mAh back into these packs, they also don't hold their voltage like before, going to 10.6V half way through the flight whereas when newish they never went below 11.4V at the same point. I was expecting at least 200 cycles from these packs but there's no way they're going to even make 100. One good thing: they are still as brick hard as when I first got them, no puffing.

They've generally not been stored at full voltage although sometimes have been charged for a week or so before flying.

In comparison I have 2 x Turnigy 5000 25C 3S packs that have had in excess of 170 discharges each and are taking 4000mAh on recharge and they are still holding 10.9V under 60A load. They have been treated well (charge - 5A/discharge - ave 40A, max 60A), have puffed slightly but continue to perform acceptably for their age/price.

Can't quite understand why my experience has been so poor with the Gens Ace as they've had no abuse at all. Maybe 10.3V is too high a cutoff voltage or I got two dud packs?

Attached are a graph from the last discharge of each pack, used in a quadcopter at around 14A average load - 959 & 1207 mAh discharged to 10.3V
At last someone who can back up my claims that Hobbyking Batteries are a good battery,after i've been doubted for saying that i'd rather keep my Turnigy batteries than keep buying Gens Ace,i couldn't prove my point with a graph unlike some but just by personal use of both makes of batteries.

I use mine in my EDF's and warbirds,just thought i'd leave that out there.

I was getting better results over a period of time with my blue Turnigy and Nano-Techs than i was with my Gens Ace,so i for one would like to thank you pardus.
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Old May 14, 2012, 08:37 AM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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If one cares to visit the Battery graph vault and has the ability to read a graph they can see that I have tested LiPolys for years and some of them for hundreds of flights and or bench cycles.

Among the other brands I have tested are a few of the HK ones. My nano 3S 2200 was (is) OK but not really impresive,the 1S Flightmax were terrible but the 1S nano 300 s and the 2S nano 180 s have been very impressive.

It seems that with HK LiPolys some are very good and others not so much. I have read post where some Turnigys from two or three years ago are still doing great while fairly new ones are not nearly as good.

Charles
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Old May 14, 2012, 10:28 AM
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amherst,nova scotia,canada
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It is still a fact in my opinion that there is no lipo manufacturer out there that has perfect quality control yet. Some just have better than others. An occassional dud is to be expected in my opinion.

It is unreasonable to let one dud only put you off a brand. Now if many are reporting issues with that brand is another story.

Then there is the issue of different production runs. There is not always consistancy between them. Some batttery retailers may even switch cell suppliers from time to time without your knowledge.

I also fully realise it is not pleasant to be the reciepient of a sub standard pack. At this time unfortunatly just part of the hobby. I tend to always buy batteries that seem to have decent performance reportedl. Having at least some indication that useable life cycles will be reasonable as well.

The life cyle thing seems to be the largest current variable as even that may be a batch to batch issue. I do not buy gen ace batteries but the majority of purchasers seem to have had good enough results in general. At least for them to endorse them. One thing for sure is that there are far worse batteries still out there.

Personally at this time I still trust the lower c batteries for maximum usable lifespans in the brands I buy. This may not be valid but since I feel this way and figure it is easier and cheaper for me to buy more batteries.Rather than high rate chargers as I always have 110 ac available where i usually fly it all works out for me so far.

I happen to have many inexpensive balance chargers aquired over time. As well as more sophisticated ones. I do agree that the higher rates of charging are nice though for most. Many casual flyers like myself are buying really high c batteries where in my opinion the true need is not there. Except for the higher charging rates. The way I tend again to look at it is there are more sound 20c batteries out there right now than the higher c ones. At least there are better indications of longer usable life cycles.

As Charles our battery guru states more or less. The battery value or true cost equation is determinate on the amount of available useable life cycles more so than anything else. Increasing battery capacity where reasonable and the weight not that much of an issue is another form of increasing available current delivery or apparent c ratings.
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Old May 14, 2012, 10:45 AM
Graham Dyer
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Johannesburg, South Africa
Joined Jul 2003
701 Posts
Agreed.

Haven't found much in the way of bad reports so far but am looking for replacements (& replacements for the 5000's) now and am a little reluctant to buy Gens Ace again, especially as they're more expensive (+ shipping) than equivalent Turnigy's from Hobbyking.

However everybody else who has them raves about them so maybe I'll try again...
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Old May 14, 2012, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by pardus View Post
Agreed.

Haven't found much in the way of bad reports so far but am looking for replacements (& replacements for the 5000's) now and am a little reluctant to buy Gens Ace again, especially as they're more expensive (+ shipping) than equivalent Turnigy's from Hobbyking.

However everybody else who has them raves about them so maybe I'll try again...
One thing I'll point out is that one week at full charge is probably not a good idea if you want these to really last a long time. I think you need to change that.

On the other hand, a few hours at full charge at most is a bit extreme (IMHO) only because that is usually outside my capability.

I say charge and fly the same day is a reasonable goal. It might not be the best way to treat a lipo, but I think it is achievable (for me!). So whatever that does to long term survivability, I'll just have to live with it.
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Old May 14, 2012, 10:59 AM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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pardus

I may be worth your while to check on these as they seem to have very good prices on thier larger capacity LiPolys and there have been some favorable reports posted.


http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1539978

I have a few of their 3S 500 and 800 s and they are decent but IMO priced to high incomparison to their larger sizes.


These are quality LiPolys at what I believe to be very fair prices and I was very impresed with the ones I have tested and flowm The 50C 3S 2200 was really tested hard and has been flown hard and is still doing extremly well even after being greatly overdsicharged and reaching 145F due to me forgetting I was flying a 2200 in a plane I normaly fly a 3300 in.

http://hicountryhobbies.com/index.ph...hikg8fugfquer3

Charles
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Old May 14, 2012, 11:20 AM
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amherst,nova scotia,canada
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Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
If one cares to visit the Battery graph vault and has the ability to read a graph they can see that I have tested LiPolys for years and some of them for hundreds of flights and or bench cycles.

Among the other brands I have tested are a few of the HK ones. My nano 3S 2200 was (is) OK but not really impresive,the 1S Flightmax were terrible but the 1S nano 300 s and the 2S nano 180 s have been very impressive.

It seems that with HK LiPolys some are very good and others not so much. I have read post where some Turnigys from two or three years ago are still doing great while fairly new ones are not nearly as good.

Charles
I have a hard time sorting out the better buys and values with hobby king batteries as well. Some seem much better than others still at this time. Generally the upside is improvements in quality overall are continuing. The batteries still seem to be evolving so fast that what is marginal today may or may not be better tommorow.

About eleven or twelve dollars delivered for a 2200 ma 20c,or 25C turnigy . Is hard to beat. Thats with a reasonable amount of customers like myself satified with them. The odd thing is I predicted this as a real possibility in my opinion years ago now.

Compared to only a few years ago they are both better and much cheaper at the same time I believe. Although remember I am just a casual flyer not trying to maximise everthing.

This is an ongoing hobby for me. Not an attempt to spend all my hobby disposable dollars on batteries. I put in orders for general supplies like carbon fibre,other accessories etc to keep the building portion of the hobby interesting with the savings.

Today more building board magnets arrived from another supplier for example. Perhaps more than paid for by the savings on my last three turingy 2200 ma batteries that all had really good balance on delivery.

There are currently two 1300 ma turnigy 20c batteries on order as well right now. The savings allowed me to throw in two motors with that order that tollerate 34 amps well each according to users for less than nine dollars each.

On these items I really am happy not to pay the price that was demanded in the past. We all complain to some extent while at the same time losing sight of the fact that in real dollars this hobby has never been anywhere near in the past as cheap to be involved in if you wish. I do not expect the current prices to last forever by the way. They are going to escallate with time.

If you had told me years ago that I could have purchased a six channel 72 mc reciever for 12.00 delivered that had really good range and reliability. Plus weighed 8.2 grams on average being a double conversion reciever. The crystal corona one that is in my opinion far better than the synthetic corona.It has also had a major recent upgade. I would have thought it an impossibility even then. Today anyone can buy it if they wish. Unbelievable if you have been in this hobby long enough and think of it. I used to pay 25.00 for a single channel ed smith tube reciever with all kinds of stability issues when 25.00 has some real dollar value.

What is all this long drawn out typing really about? It is only by a stroke of luck that things are as they are today in our hobby. It is about the only thing that I can thing of is where there has been a massive decrease in prices of a deflationary nature available to most if they want it.

In other words keeping things in perspective and having some appreciation even for what is in our hobby is perhaps hard to visualise for some. . For me I appreciate the price and availability of choices I have today. They could as easily have just been the reverse of what they are.

In the early nineties a lipoly of dubious reliability and perhaps ten C, an .05 brushless motor, and esc for them. Cost about 460.00 on sale. Thirty five dollars today can get you substantually better for example. Nothing but nothing in the economy that I can think of at the spur of the moment has acted simularily. Prices declined to only a few percent of what they where in some cases. Basically a complete motor setup for a model for less than the cost of a half tank of gas on many cars today. Or a complete computorised nine channel reliable 2.4 radio system for little more.
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Old May 14, 2012, 11:50 AM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
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Very true about high cost in the past cost and extremly inexpensive at present.

My first store bought 4 channnel digital radio with Trans. ,receiver and 4 servos cost clsoe to $500 and di not have servo reversing,dual rates,expo. multi model memories, or any mixes at all.

The first computerized Transmitter I purchased 22 years ago cost $450 for the Trasmitter alone.

Eight years ago I was paying $37.50 for 6C 3S 1100 mAh LiPolys and around $45 for a very simple low power non balancing LiPoly charger that used shorting clips to select the cell count and the charge rate. I also was paying $25 for Hitec HS55 servos which now cost arount $14 but the HXT 900 s seem to be just as good now and they cost less than $4 ea.

Charles
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Old May 14, 2012, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
Very true about high cost in the past cost and extremly inexpensive at present.

My first store bought 4 channnel digital radio with Trans. ,receiver and 4 servos cost clsoe to $500 and di not have servo reversing,dual rates,expo. multi model memories, or any mixes at all.

The first computerized Transmitter I purchased 22 years ago cost $450 for the Trasmitter alone.

Eight years ago I was paying $37.50 for 6C 3S 1100 mAh LiPolys and around $45 for a very simple low power non balancing LiPoly charger that used shorting clips to select the cell count and the charge rate. I also was paying $25 for Hitec HS55 servos which now cost arount $14 but the HXT 900 s seem to be just as good now and they cost less than $4 ea.

Charles
Some items from hobby king that they manufacture are becoming for all practicallity the world standard for what they are. As you mentioned the 9 gram hxt servo is available in quantities of two for about four dollars each delivered to your door is almost one of them if not already.

What interests me at this time is their own new in house manufactured nine channel radio system. Some readers may be unaware of this development still until reading this.

Due for release later this year or the early part of next year. After waiting a suitable period for any bugs to be worked out of early production if present I will grab one. Suspect it will be less than 100.00 retail as they already retail an outside sourced 2.4 nine channel system of transmitter and reciever with no battery packs or servos for around fifty dollars that has been gaining more and more acceptance over time. The price indicated junk to most but is proving otherwise over time it seems.

Based on what I think will be released it would not be wise to buy stock in hitec,futaba,jr,airtronics etc at this time. What is coming could in fact be so bad for the old line companies they might have to fold up their operations or reduce prices very drastically to even survive at all. Retention of the current status quo will be an impossibility in my opinion.

A nine channel futaba for under two hundred comes to mind as a possible response. Although they will be less than happy. For my generation a piece of a pie is better than no pie at all. They might be reduced to this as a possibility as an example..

They old line radio labels may be safe for some time though as hobbyking will probably not be able to meet demand for the new product initially at least if it is what I think it is going to be. They cannot meet demand at all for the nine channel outside sourced radio at all at this time I believe.

The owner of hobby king one Anthony Hand has correctly figured out a way of meeting his own needs. Plus those of his customers in a fashion never before seen in our hobby on a continious basis.

A lot of it is just simple old common sense that was lost in the north american scene in my opinion.Plus some smarts. Excess greed in north america gave him the initial opening required.

If one has an inkling of all the complex issues and that some of them may impact you in using an operation such as his you can be quite satisfied with dealing with them I found.

Another concept is if you pay a large dollar for a simualr item primarily because it has a better warranty arrangement. Take a nine gram servo for example. If it does not fail you have paid too much as you have paid more than enough for the replacement if required in the original price of the item. Warranty in general is an aditional hidden charge in most items.

Who really needs a warranty on a four dollar servo if it has achieved a certain known status of reliability and serviceability anyways? Same with their well under ten dollar 2200ma 20c lithium polymer turnigy battteries. Plus a lot of their other items.

At the same time hobbyking is not for everybody in my opinion.This is very dependant on factors like their individual temperments, personalities,expectations and perceptions of things in my opinion. These people are still winners in the situation though as there is no doubt now that hobbyking has forced all the others to reduce or hold prices. That is on most hobby items they aquire from other sources so as I see it as everyone at the hobby consumption end wins in some way or another from hobbykings existance at this point in time.
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Old May 16, 2012, 03:45 PM
Graham Dyer
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Johannesburg, South Africa
Joined Jul 2003
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Gens Ace 5500mAh 3S 25C - Hobbypartz - $42.20 + $35 shipping = $77.20
Turnigy 5000mAh 3S 25C - Hobbyking - $26.57 + $10 shipping = $36.57

Gens Ace 2200mAh 3S 25C - Hobbypartz - $19.63 + $25 shipping = $44.63
Turnigy 2200mAh 3S 30C - Hobbyking - $13.79 + $7 shipping = $20.79

Considering my experience, seems like the choice is a no brainer. I got more than twice the cycles from a battery that costs less than half as much. Cheers Gens Ace...
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