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Old Jun 20, 2012, 03:20 PM
Retired Old Guy
whitehedr's Avatar
United States, IL, New Lenox
Joined Jan 2012
607 Posts
I put a Castle ICE 45 ESC on my Hausler 450 so I could spool the aircraft up in a more realistic fashion. I dont think the stock ESC has a slow start mode. It is neat to spool it up slowly, though it does take a little bit of time. If I land with the intention of lifting off again I don't take the aircraft out of stunt mode as it will spool down and then enter slow start again. I just let it spin in stunt, add collective and I am flying again. Way cool!!

RWW
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Old Jun 20, 2012, 07:22 PM
My other addiction!
norcalheli's Avatar
Marysville, Ca., US
Joined Jan 2007
1,678 Posts
For the ultimate in slow start, Wren1702 used nitro to electric conversion mechanics with a clutch in his excellent AS-350. Check it out here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=49 and be sure to have the sound turned up. The startup sounds very close to a full-size turbine spinning up. The build thread shows the incomparable attention to detail this man puts into his models.
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Old Jun 21, 2012, 08:23 PM
Retired Old Guy
whitehedr's Avatar
United States, IL, New Lenox
Joined Jan 2012
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That is sweet!! Just the way I want to be able to fly some day.

RWW
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Old Jun 24, 2012, 06:48 AM
Rotor Controller
CaptJac's Avatar
Aachen Germany
Joined Dec 2007
1,976 Posts
Middle Ground

There is middle ground for setting up a heli. Most middle-grounders learn mid-stick is 0 pitch - below mid-stick negative pitch - above mid-stick positive pitch. Over MUCH agonizing (and crashing) I came to realize this wasn't working for ME because I was too conditioned to slam the throttle down when I got in trouble - which slammed me into the ground with negative pitch.

Another middle ground is mid-stick at 3 instead of 0. This is a middle ground 3D'ers are vehemently opposed to. Their position is mid-stick must be 0 degrees and is the only way to learn. My position is NOT everyone wants to fly 3D and you give up half your collective if everything below mid-stick is negative.

When I wrote FAQs 102 - I went with the NON-3D approach to eliminate the negative pitch and make mid-stick the lift off point at 3 degrees and use a linear throttle curve. In FAQs 103 (still in works) - I fined tuned that a bit more and flattened the throttle curve so at 1/4 stick it was 60% instead of 25% and 1/2 stick it was 80%. This improves vertical control (minimizes bobbing) considerably. Although I hated to admit it - there was some validity to the 3D'ers madness of making the throttle independent of the the collective by using two flight-modes. Normal and Stunt. Where I dug my heals in was making mid-stick 3 instead of 0 - I assure you this was not approved or sanctioned by the 3D priests in Helifreak. They did everything but burn me at the stake for such heresy and when I posted my "3D is not for everyone" thread my access to the forum was suspended. To be fair - I was the one who entered their church. They had every right to throw me out. That doesn't alter my position though - the failure rate (and crash rate) of newbies is defined by the program they are given at the front door. If you can't fly inverted then you can't fly is NOT the bible of RC helicopters. I don't advocate everyone learn the same way because everyone is different. For sure the over 50's have a very different criteria than the early 20's. The over 50's don't exist in the early 20's eyes. Won't even try to cross that ground. I could only wish I see 50 again!! Here's the over 50 settings I use.

Throttle and Pitch curves:

In Normal flight mode - the throttle is OFF at low stick, 0,60,80,80,80. Pitch curve is -2,0,3,3,3 with the -2 to hold it on the ground when spinning up. At 3 it is trying but still not flying. In Stunt flight mode - the throttle curve is 80,80,80,80,80 and pitch curve is -2,0,3,5,7.


Moment of Truth Spin-up in "Normal mode". When the collective is at 50% (mid stick) switch to "Stunt-mode" - increase collective gradually until lift off. Keep it close to the ground so if if starts tipping you can land and get re-calibrated. Use throttle-hold for shutting down the engine so it becomes more "reflexive". Training gear is VERY advisable as that will eliminate the fear of tipping over during lift offs and landings. Have a great flight!! The Phoenix Simulator Flight School is always there if you need any help.
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Last edited by CaptJac; Jun 25, 2012 at 02:56 AM.
Old Jun 24, 2012, 11:31 AM
Registered User
United States, NY, Yonkers
Joined May 2010
195 Posts
I generally prefer scale flying to 3D.
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Old Jun 24, 2012, 07:36 PM
Hangin' for a strong SW
slothy89's Avatar
Australia, VIC, Sebastopol
Joined Apr 2012
762 Posts
Well CaptJac,

You are more than welcome here, as there seems to be much more interest in the NON 3D flying aspect here than apparently HeliFreak were willing to accept. 3D is not the be all and end all for RC flying.

To be honest I can't see how it could be so hard to switch from a Scale pitch setup to a 3D setup anyway... I do it all the time on my RC Sim, and I can fly both just fine.

having the extra resolution for the Scale flight is only a Plus in my mind, keep up your good work mate!
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 07:03 AM
Registered User
South London United Kingdom
Joined Jun 2003
1,156 Posts
Hi CaptJac

Been reading this thread, and your FAQ102 with great interest. First of all thanks for bringing this discussion, 3d or not 3d, to the fore.
I am fascinated by the mechanical aspects of these models, and have amassed quite a fleet, but I still consider myself a beginner at the flying side.
Given that, I get frustrated by every review I read stressing how the model fell together out of the box, and would then do every 3d trick in the book.
This is the real world, and things are never that perfect. That's why I read the forums, to get a realistic opinion of how a particular model performs,and also how it close it suits my style of flying.
Anyway, having said that, I would like to throw in a couple of ideas, for everyone to consider.
First of all, I am talking here about 450 size. I have never owned an MCp or MCx or any of the smaller models. For a 450, I think your pitch settings of -2,0,+3,+5,+7 should be regarded as a starting point, rather than set in stone.
With the tremendous variation in equipment for these models, these curves may not suit everyone.
Differences in motor Kv, pinion size, blade type, and battery size all mean that each model has a 'sweet spot' combination which may not necessarily match your recommendations.
I have a HK450 Ver2, normally hovers on +5. I tried it on +3 and it would barely get off the ground. I went back to my normal settings of -2,+5,+10 and things were back to normal.
Small accident (not to do with the settings) curtailed testing. I now have the heli rebuilt, but this time using a Pro head I had handy. Another variation on the theme.
Once the weather relents, I will carry on testing, but using my pitch curve as a baseline, rather than the suggested.
May have to think about the transition from Normal To Stunt a little more. I will detail what I find, once I find it.
Summing up, I believe CaptJac's settings to be a beginning, but not necessarily final.
Secondly, although I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that a 3d set up is not for everybody, I still think there is some room for it in the mechanical side.
I have never seen, or heard of, any model that is perfect out of the box. Even so-called RTF models need some sort of setting up.
To that end, you need a baseline to start from. I believe this should be a 3d setting.
So, with the pitch stick central, start from the servos and set all the arms level. Then work your way up the head, adjusting everything to level or parallel as necessary, ending up with setting the blades to zero pitch.
Then, moving the pitch stick to each end should give equal pitch, both positive and negative. If it does, or very nearly so, proves that your mechanical setting is good. Also, you can move the sticks to their extremes to check for binding, etc.
Once that is done, time to start experimenting with pitch settings via the curve menu.

Just my thoughts, feedback is welcome.

BL
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 07:48 AM
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CaptJac's Avatar
Aachen Germany
Joined Dec 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Border Lord View Post
For a 450, I think your pitch settings of -2,0,+3,+5,+7 should be regarded as a starting point, rather than set in stone.
Absolute agreement - there is no set in stone. The curves I provided are for a beginner to give a very gradual transition from spinning-up (3) to hovering 5. The 7 is really only needed for recovery if you need to gain some altitude quick. Above that is a little too much rocket juice for a beginner and often results in over controlling the collective.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Border Lord View Post
Small accident (not to do with the settings)
Aren't they all?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Border Lord View Post
May have to think about the transition from Normal To Stunt a little more.
Try it - you'll like it. Making the throttle curve FLAT provides much smoother lift and hover control and doing basic circuits.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Border Lord View Post
with the pitch stick central, start from the servos and set all the arms level. Then work your way up the head, adjusting everything to level or parallel as necessary, ending up with setting the blades to zero pitch. Then, moving the pitch stick to each end should give equal pitch, both positive and negative. If it does, or very nearly so, proves that your mechanical setting is good. Also, you can move the sticks to their extremes to check for binding, etc. Once that is done, time to start experimenting with pitch settings via the curve menu.
Good points - the mechanical setup was NOT included in this posting so as not to get lost in the forest with all the trees. The initial mechanical setup should be the same as 3D - doing each adjustment methodically - aka Finless Bob videos. My hero!! When the mechanics are setup then it is time to go work on the curve menus in the radio - starting with the swash-mix (about 60%) to bring all the curves into the positive range on your pitch gauge.
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Last edited by CaptJac; Mar 11, 2013 at 11:15 AM.
Old Jun 25, 2012, 04:05 PM
Registered User
Redondo Beach, CA
Joined Jan 2007
169 Posts
I'm one very happy CaptJac student after the maiden flight of my newly built 450 Sport V2 today. The heli came through fine, though the pilot was a bit weak in the knees after hovering out two battery packs.

I followed Finless Bob and Ashley Davis build videos for mechanical and CCPM setup as much as possible (kit details change with time). Default DX7 swash mix (60%) and stock head setup gave me +-10.5 degrees pitch. I dialed down the pitch component of the swash mix to give +-8 degree pitch range. I then checked with my pitch gauge and not surprisingly, +3 degrees was pretty close to 65% and -2 degrees was 40%. I consider all of this, leveling, setting swash mix, getting rid of CCPM interactions part of mechanical setup even though it obviously includes lots of transmitter settings.

Then, following the Capt's suggestions, and consistent with the way I have been flying in the sim, I set my idle up pitch curve to be 40% at zero throttle, 65% at mid stick, and 100% at the top. My transmitter has 5 point curves, so it just does a straight line interpolation between points 1 and 3 and between points 3 and 5. I also used the flat throttle curves topping out at 80%.

After range test and checking cyclic and collective movement in throttle hold, I spun it up and held it a few seconds just below mid-stick to make sure there were no vibrations, wobbles, or loose parts flying out. That also helped me get used to the sound and head speed. Since I had attached some home-made training gear, and I was on concrete, I played with the cyclic a bit with the heli just getting light to gain a feel for it a la Radd's School of Flight.

Once we were properly introduced on the ground, I took the heli up into the air a few feet, and the simulator time had really paid off. While it was not identical to the sim, it was similar enough, and I had developed enough finger muscle memory that I had no trouble controlling it and I could keep a pretty tight hover once I got it out of the ground wash. At this stage of my training, 3D would mean that I lost of control, OTH I have worked hard to break the habit of dropping the throttle (collective) when in trouble.

All in all a great maiden flight. Sure beats bringing home a bag of wreckage.

Alan
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 04:51 PM
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Aachen Germany
Joined Dec 2007
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CONGRATULATIONS ALAN!! GREAT work - GREAT report - GREAT results!!

You are an exemplary student and makes me proud to be part of your achievement and success!
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Old Jun 27, 2012, 03:52 PM
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Old Jun 28, 2012, 11:28 AM
Registered User
Joined Jun 2005
155 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptJac View Post
Middle Ground

There is middle ground for setting up a heli. Most middle-grounders learn mid-stick is 0 pitch - below mid-stick negative pitch - above mid-stick positive pitch. Over MUCH agonizing (and crashing) I came to realize this wasn't working for ME because I was too conditioned to slam the throttle down when I got in trouble - which slammed me into the ground with negative pitch.

Another middle ground is mid-stick at 3 instead of 0. This is a middle ground 3D'ers are vehemently opposed to. Their position is mid-stick must be 0 degrees and is the only way to learn. My position is NOT everyone wants to fly 3D and you give up half your collective if everything below mid-stick is negative.

When I wrote FAQs 102 - I went with the NON-3D approach to eliminate the negative pitch and make mid-stick the lift off point at 3 degrees and use a linear throttle curve. In FAQs 103 (still in works) - I fined tuned that a bit more and flattened the throttle curve so at 1/4 stick it was 60% instead of 25% and 1/2 stick it was 80%. This improves vertical control (minimizes bobbing) considerably. Although I hated to admit it - there was some validity to the 3D'ers madness of making the throttle independent of the the collective by using two flight-modes. Normal and Stunt. Where I dug my heals in was making mid-stick 3 instead of 0 - I assure you this was not approved or sanctioned by the 3D priests in Helifreak. They did everything but burn me at the stake for such heresy and when I posted my "3D is not for everyone" thread my access to the forum was suspended. To be fair - I was the one who entered their church. They had every right to throw me out. That doesn't alter my position though - the failure rate (and crash rate) of newbies is defined by the program they are given at the front door. If you can't fly inverted then you can't fly is NOT the bible of RC helicopters. I don't advocate everyone learn the same way because everyone is different. For sure the over 50's have a very different criteria than the early 20's. The over 50's don't exist in the early 20's eyes. Won't even try to cross that ground. I could only wish I see 50 again!! Here's the over 50 settings I use.

Throttle and Pitch curves:

In Normal flight mode - the throttle is OFF at low stick, 0,60,80,80,80. Pitch curve is -2,0,3,3,3 with the -2 to hold it on the ground when spinning up. At 3 it is trying but still not flying. In Stunt flight mode - the throttle curve is 80,80,80,80,80 and pitch curve is -2,0,3,5,7.


Moment of Truth Spin-up in "Normal mode". When the collective is at 50% (mid stick) switch to "Stunt-mode" - increase collective gradually until lift off. Keep it close to the ground so if if starts tipping you can land and get re-calibrated. Use throttle-hold for shutting down the engine so it becomes more "reflexive". Training gear is VERY advisable as that will eliminate the fear of tipping over during lift offs and landings. Have a great flight!! The Phoenix Simulator Flight School is always there if you need any help.

You've gained a new convert here!

I'm a beginner, so I'm new to all this. I don't know which direction (3D or Not) I'm going, I just want to be able to fly.

I started with the general settings (linear throttle and flat pitch) to mimic a flybar while learning, then I came across this post, which makes a lot of sense to me.

It'll definitely be a few years an tons of practice before I'll even attempt inverted flight with a real heli, even though I can do it in Phoenix pretty well. I don't think a real-life heli is going to work like the simulator!

So I switched over my throttle and pitch curves to this middle ground and tried it out. I have to say that it's improved my flying right off the ground!

Before my GCP would be hopping and bopping vertically all the time. I had a lot of trouble keeping it "vertically stable" for some reason. I was constantly having to give it lots of throttle changes to keep it level. Now, with these settings, I spin it up, flip the switch and up to about 3' into a smooth, vertical hover. Now I can concentrate more on maintaining the heli's horizontal positioning than vertical.

Thanks so much for the post. It has helped me tremendously!
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Old Jun 29, 2012, 08:13 AM
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Joined Jun 2005
155 Posts
So after playing around with this new configuration, I've come up with a question.

I understand the procedure for takeoff and it makes sense to me.

The question I have now is landing. It it the same procedure in reverse? Do you land in Stunt mode or Normal mode?

Thanks!
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Old Jun 29, 2012, 08:31 AM
Hangin' for a strong SW
slothy89's Avatar
Australia, VIC, Sebastopol
Joined Apr 2012
762 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by indiggio View Post
So after playing around with this new configuration, I've come up with a question.

I understand the procedure for takeoff and it makes sense to me.

The question I have now is landing. It it the same procedure in reverse? Do you land in Stunt mode or Normal mode?

Thanks!
Land in stunt mode so you still have full head speed to maintain control. once on the ground switch back to normal and drop the throttle and engage throttle hold
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Old Jun 29, 2012, 08:42 AM
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Joined Jun 2005
155 Posts
Thanks!

Not really knowing how it should be done, it's a bit comforting that that's how I was doing it.
I just wanted some confirmation to know it was the proper way.

Regards!
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