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Old Jun 13, 2012, 08:29 PM
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United States, AL, Morris
Joined Mar 2012
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Originally Posted by Angrydad View Post

My only problem is it seems to want to move backwards on liftoff
I know I'm not supposed to use any cyclic on liftoff but found a nudge on the elevator was required to get it airborne. Would leveling the swash help here?
How much throttle are you giving it? At first I would try to 'sneak up' gradually on the throttle which would send it off in a direction other than up. I learned to be a bit more aggressive, and now I can do almost completely vertical takeoffs.
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Old Jun 14, 2012, 07:06 AM
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Australia, WA, Mandurah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveap1 View Post
How much throttle are you giving it? At first I would try to 'sneak up' gradually on the throttle which would send it off in a direction other than up. I learned to be a bit more aggressive, and now I can do almost completely vertical takeoffs.
I gave it plenty of throttle, but it may just need a bit more aggression on the pitch curve. I need to pick a compromise between a clean lift-off and still controllable during a hover. Tomorrow's mission
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Old Jun 14, 2012, 07:29 AM
Hangin' for a strong SW
slothy89's Avatar
Australia, VIC, Sebastopol
Joined Apr 2012
753 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angrydad View Post
I gave it plenty of throttle, but it may just need a bit more aggression on the pitch curve. I need to pick a compromise between a clean lift-off and still controllable during a hover. Tomorrow's mission
Or punch the throttle quite high on take off then as soon as it's in the air drop it back to hover speed. That way it should literally jump off the ground straight up

Works on the sim :P
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Old Jun 14, 2012, 10:35 AM
Rotor Controller
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Aachen Germany
Joined Dec 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angrydad View Post
I gave it plenty of throttle, but it may just need a bit more aggression on the pitch curve. I need to pick a compromise between a clean lift-off and still controllable during a hover. Tomorrow's mission

It's difficult to maintain a constant altitude with the mCPx when the head speed is changing. Try setting up 2 sets of curves to make the head speed constant.

Norm mode
Throttle curve 0,60,60,60,60 (Spin-up only)
Pitch curve-- -2,0, 3,3,3 (Spin-up only)

Stunt mode
Throttle curve 0,60,70,75,80 (hover)
Pitch curve----2,0,4,6,8 (hover)

This will maintain a fairly constant head-speed and good altitude control.

In spin-up you can "train" the 3-axis gyro for a slow lift off.

In Norm - spin-up until you reached full head speed (collective below center stick). Gently give it left and right cyclic careful to not let it tip over. Same for pitch - push the cyclic stick forward and back - being careful not to let it tip. Switch to Stunt mode (F Mode on the DX6i) - there should be little no change in the head speed - gradually increase your collective until it lifts off the ground. With practice you will be able to attain slow and smooth lift offs. Just like a full scale helicopter. Note: Full scale helicopters do not rocket off the ground.
,
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Last edited by CaptJac; Jan 26, 2013 at 05:07 AM.
Old Jun 14, 2012, 02:32 PM
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Very well said. Couldn't agree more. I am all in it to be able to emulate scale flying. Flying with precision and consistency is much more difficult than 3D flying.
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Old Jun 15, 2012, 03:48 AM
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Australia, WA, Mandurah
Joined Apr 2012
260 Posts
Awesome, just spent the best part of the day flying around in my front yard (Minus battery charge times!), I've played around with the settings a bit, even managed to try out the stock MCPX settings. I can proudly say I think I'm getting a handle on this little bird, which is something I didn't expect for quite a while. Yes I did have a couple of crashes, including 1 fairly hard one into the corner of the house, but the only damage so far in my 3 days of flying is a few scratches on the blade tips and a couple of links popped off. Not too bad at all

Thanks for this thread, CaptJac, I think it's helped me enormously, even if only for a bit of a confidence boost, which is what I think is one of the most important parts of flying one of these things. I may even get the 450 out again and try for a hover
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Old Jun 15, 2012, 11:33 AM
Wind you go around in circles
Wind Spirit's Avatar
United States, FL, Middleburg
Joined Jan 2012
1,357 Posts
New Algin T-rex 450 Sport V2

Capt. Jac, First I would like to thank you for all your help. I just built my 450 and have hovered it about 8 times. I have tried everyone's setup numbers I could find. As you stated most are 3D. I have a Dx6i and until about 5 min. ago I have stayed in normal mode. I used your Thro & Pitch numbers and it was a instant help! I spooled up in normal, switched to St1 hovered and a few landings for a good 7 or 8 mins, my timer is set for 6 but I could not stop, to much fun. Also the wind now is 10 to 20 mph. I used a +20% expo and your T&P curves, she was so much smother. I have not yet, but will also set DR at 75%. I know to some this is mild but I do not have a Sim. and have never used one and this is my first CP and so far NO CRASHES. What do you think about the DR 75%? Thanks for your time!WS
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Old Jun 15, 2012, 12:27 PM
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CaptJac's Avatar
Aachen Germany
Joined Dec 2007
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Flying in 10-20 mph winds for a beginner? Wow!! Darn impressive! Glad to hear the non-3D pitch and throttle curves helped you. I have been publicly flogged for even suggesting newbies should not be setting up their helis for 3D - lucky I didn't get tarred and feathered!

Keep up the good work

captJac
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Old Jun 15, 2012, 01:06 PM
Wind you go around in circles
Wind Spirit's Avatar
United States, FL, Middleburg
Joined Jan 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptJac View Post
Flying in 10-20 mph winds for a beginner? Wow!! Darn impressive! Glad to hear the non-3D pitch and throttle curves helped you. I have been publicly flogged for even suggesting newbies should not be setting up their helis for 3D - lucky I didn't get tarred and feathered!

Keep up the good work

captJac
Well, all I can say is keep up the good work. What do you think of tameing the DR to 75%? I am 58 and not as fast on the sticks as some of the younger ones. I dont think you need to worry about getting tarred & feathered, they are to busy fixing there birds after all the crashes. I may get into 3D some day, but for now I have fly and land with no crashes on my mind, thats why I can keep her under control in the wind, but it is a handfull. I am more impressed by someone that can fly for a month without a crash, or being able to land on a dime in 10mph wind, but that is just me. Your way of thinking helped me and I always think if you help someone with anything that is a good thing and nobody can take that from you.WS
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Old Jun 15, 2012, 01:30 PM
Wind you go around in circles
Wind Spirit's Avatar
United States, FL, Middleburg
Joined Jan 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptJac View Post
Flying in 10-20 mph winds for a beginner? Wow!! Darn impressive! Glad to hear the non-3D pitch and throttle curves helped you. I have been publicly flogged for even suggesting newbies should not be setting up their helis for 3D - lucky I didn't get tarred and feathered!

Keep up the good work

captJac
Forecast tonight in Middleburg, FL. 10 to 15 mph wind, maybe I can get another flight today. I guess you can call hovering a flight, but with this wind she will drift 20 or 30 ft. fast and that is keeping her at about 5 or 6 ft.off the ground. I want to try that reduced DR setting. I can not say how cool these new radios are , make changes in a second. I remember when the sevros in a plane were powered with a rubber band, bet some of these young guys didnt know that!WS
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Last edited by Wind Spirit; Jun 15, 2012 at 01:46 PM.
Old Jun 15, 2012, 02:33 PM
Blue Skies
hifinsword's Avatar
United States, VA, Williamsburg
Joined May 2012
1,111 Posts
Not everyone should or wants to fly 3D

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptJac View Post
A LOT of beginners - and I underline a LOT - are misled or misguided or misinformed into thinking they should set up their 450's for 3D because that is the way to learn. BUT there is another helicopter world that has nothing to do with 3D - called SCALE flying and approximates as close as possible real flying in a real helicopter. Not that it is any easier - and in fact is considerably more difficult to slow fly and precision hovering and 360 degree turns around the field with coordinated banked turns instead of zipping and zapping and rocketing and imitating a humming bird on crack. OK - so much for slamming 3D - how do you setup your brand-new just built 450 for scale flying? Get out your pitch gauge and open up the pitch-curve and throttle curve menus on your transmitter and let's start spinning up.

First - and most importantly - get rid of all that negative pitch. -2 degrees (-2) is all you need in the beginning - and this is to insure you can get back down on the ground if you get into updrafts. Someday you may want to do some inverted flying - but there is an awful lot of non-inverted flying you will want to learn first. An ideal pitch-curve for beginners is -2 (low stick) +3 (center stick) and +8 (high stick). This will cause your heli to get light on the skids slightly above center stick. But what about the throttle curve? Here is where you want to start taking notes. The throttle should be independent of the pitch once you spin up. How you do that? Your transmitter can switch flight-modes (The DX7 uses "Normal" -"ST1"- "ST2") and each of these flight-modes has its own throttle-curve and pitch-curve. Using the DX7 for this example - set the throttle curve in "Nomal" for 0-80-80-80-80. This will spin up your engine and hold about an 80% head speed above the 1/4 stick position. Set the throttle curve in "ST1" for 80-80-80-80-80 . This will hold a constant head speed constant in all stick positions. Now here's where it gets slick with the stick. Set the pitch curve in "Normal" for -2, 0, 3, 3, 3 on your pitch gauge. Note: The numbers in the DX7 are not degrees - they are percentage - you need a pitch gauge to convert the numbers into degrees. Set the pitch curve in "ST1" the same way except the last two points on the curve will be 5 and 8. Your pitch curve will be -2, 0, 3, 5, 8. "Normal" flight-mode will be for spinning up and spinning down - "ST1" will be for flying.

First Flight test: Spin up in "Normal" - bring up your collective stick to about 25% (this will spool up your engine but not take off). Switch to "ST1" and continue to bring up your collective (gradually) until you have lift off. Now you are controlling altitude with pitch and not head speed. This will give you far smoother control of maintaining your height - just like a full scale helicopter. For landing it is just the opposite. Reduce your collective (gradually) until you are the ground - switch to "Normal" and bring your throttle down to zero. Switch on throttle-hold for safety.

Note: At any time you want to shut off the engine - don't slam the collective down - this will only add negative pitch. Condition your finger or thumb or big toe (whichever works for you) to switch ON throttle-hold or throttle-cut when you panic. This will maintain your positive pitch on the blades and help eliminate the pan-cake effect into the ground.

captJac
I stumbled onto this and just want to thank you CaptJac for providing some guidance for the MAJORITY of us enthusiasts, for the type of flying most of us prefer. It wasn't the 3D stuff that got me interested in flying helos. It was the idea that I might be able to fly a machine in a similar fashion to the ones I've watched fly - and to do it smoothly and with precision like the skilled pilots I've known. I spent 20 years in Naval Aviation and never saw a helo go inverted or do the 3D things that RC Modelers do. One of the neatest pieces of flying I ever witnessed is 'Vertical Replenishment' (VERTREP) while underway - two helos doing a dance between 2 ships while hauling cargo between them.

If 3D is your thing, great but for most of us, getting off the ground and returning in 1 piece is enough. My challenge after 4 months of this hobby is to fly my 120SR smoothly and land on a dime. Still working at it. If I get good enough for my satisfaction, I will probably try the Blade 130X next if I can tame it down enough so that even I can hover and land. I thought the thread could use a refresh of why it started. Keep up the good work CaptJac and thanks.
Don
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Old Jun 16, 2012, 07:19 AM
Wind you go around in circles
Wind Spirit's Avatar
United States, FL, Middleburg
Joined Jan 2012
1,357 Posts
450 Setup

Hi Capt Jac, Well the wind is already getting up, 7:30am. No rain, which we have had a lot lately. Anyway I wanted to let you know, I tried your numbers and did that DR setting at 75%, did not like it, not enough control so for now I am going to use your T&P curve settings with +20% expo, that with 100% DR seems to work pretty good.Thanks again,WS
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Old Jun 16, 2012, 03:43 PM
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Aachen Germany
Joined Dec 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wind Spirit View Post
Hi Capt Jac, Well the wind is already getting up, 7:30am. No rain, which we have had a lot lately. Anyway I wanted to let you know, I tried your numbers and did that DR setting at 75%, did not like it, not enough control so for now I am going to use your T&P curve settings with +20% expo, that with 100% DR seems to work pretty good.Thanks again, WS
Those settings came from trail and error - mostly error. Your confirmation and comments are like a salve for the welts on my back from the public flogging I received from the other forum - HeliFreak. There are a LOT of 3D'ers over there and they did not take too kindly to my comments or my settings. Their mentality is setting up for NON-3D is a mistake because newbies don't really know what they want. My philosophy is newbies should make that decision for themselves without being coerced into 3D is good for everyone. Ask anyone who has watched a REAL helicopter lift slowly off the ground. Being able to imitate those flight characteristics with an RC helicopter is nothing less than amazing. Beat me until I'm a giant welt - but I won't - my books won't - my flight school videos 101 won't - my Phoenix Simulator flight school won't - give one inch that you can't learn to fly unless your helicopters is setup for 3D. Anybody seen the salve?
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Old Jun 16, 2012, 07:09 PM
Hangin' for a strong SW
slothy89's Avatar
Australia, VIC, Sebastopol
Joined Apr 2012
753 Posts
100% agree CaptJac, if 3D was the only way to fly, why do so many CP helis on sims such as Phoenix have a Sports variant? Which have more +ve than -ve pitch
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Old Jun 17, 2012, 01:32 AM
Registered User
Cornwall,Ontario,Canada
Joined Mar 2002
174 Posts
Hey captjack, this thread is really great for the newbies I applaud you.
newbies being told that their heli needs to be set up for 3d type pitch curves..ie:0deg at center stick, reminds years ago when I wanted to learn to fly helis and was told I had to learn to fly planks first. Another case of the masses trying to control the individual.
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