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Old Jan 16, 2013, 08:11 AM
Rotor Controller
CaptJac's Avatar
Aachen Germany
Joined Dec 2007
1,995 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravityKills View Post
but that's a problem with the pilot, not the heli.
Exactly the point of this thread and why I advocate - encourage - promote - incite -teach beginners - get RID of that negative pitch!! 3D is NOT for everyone and this thread has certainly attested to that. I'm still spitting feathers from the tar-and-feathering I got over at the other forum - but it don't change the color of my tar!! You DON'T have to fly 3D to fly helicopters. 3D has NOTHING to do with real helicopters and an awful lot of people want to fly like a real helicopter and not a humming bird on crack. The "I give up" ratio of beginners is dismal. If they last 3 months they are 95% ahead of the rest. I'm trying to reduce that to 94%. Anyone seen the tar removal?
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 08:37 AM
like a rock!
gravityKills's Avatar
Finland
Joined Oct 2007
2,453 Posts
but you need the negative pitch to get down when the wind picks up.
Not -11 degrees, but -3 or -4. And it won't be enough if the pinion comes loose and you need to improvise an auto (whether that matters to beginners is another question).

A 3D heli - most models sold nowadays are of this type - is designed in a specific way, making it (usually) fully symmetric. It is MUCH easier to set it up mechanically in the way it was intended to be used. You can get rid of excessive negative pitch on the radio.

What I usually do when setting up a nitro heli for a beginner:
Put in enough positive pitch so that you can climb out confidently.
Then set the same for negative pitch (symmetrical)
Then set the lower quarter constant, so you can spool up the heli under a little negative pitch.

Those are starting values, subject to fine tuning after test flight. But you get the idea.

I agree with the "hummingbird on crack". On the other hand, you want the heli to act like the one you know from the simulator. If you suddenly transition into fixed-pitch territory (beginners don't use idle-up - you're running out of negative pitch and then you're controlling throttle instead), the whole game gets oh so much more difficult.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 01:53 PM
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United States, OR
Joined Jan 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gravityKills View Post
but you need the negative pitch to get down when the wind picks up.
Not -11 degrees, but -3 or -4. And it won't be enough if the pinion comes loose and you need to improvise an auto (whether that matters to beginners is another question).

A 3D heli - most models sold nowadays are of this type - is designed in a specific way, making it (usually) fully symmetric. It is MUCH easier to set it up mechanically in the way it was intended to be used. You can get rid of excessive negative pitch on the radio.

What I usually do when setting up a nitro heli for a beginner:
Put in enough positive pitch so that you can climb out confidently.
Then set the same for negative pitch (symmetrical)
Then set the lower quarter constant, so you can spool up the heli under a little negative pitch.

Those are starting values, subject to fine tuning after test flight. But you get the idea.

I agree with the "hummingbird on crack". On the other hand, you want the heli to act like the one you know from the simulator. If you suddenly transition into fixed-pitch territory (beginners don't use idle-up - you're running out of negative pitch and then you're controlling throttle instead), the whole game gets oh so much more difficult.
the one I know on the simulator I have set up as close to identical to the actual bird. there is negative pitch setup already with the settings Cap't Jack suggested. I suppose one could increase that to -3 to -4 if they are in a very turbulent environment.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 03:57 PM
Blue Skies
hifinsword's Avatar
United States, VA, Williamsburg
Joined May 2012
1,201 Posts
A FP blade on a CP helo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gravityKills View Post
but you need the negative pitch to get down when the wind picks up.
Not -11 degrees, but -3 or -4. And it won't be enough if the pinion comes loose and you need to improvise an auto (whether that matters to beginners is another question).

A 3D heli - most models sold nowadays are of this type - is designed in a specific way, making it (usually) fully symmetric. It is MUCH easier to set it up mechanically in the way it was intended to be used. You can get rid of excessive negative pitch on the radio.

What I usually do when setting up a nitro heli for a beginner:
Put in enough positive pitch so that you can climb out confidently.
Then set the same for negative pitch (symmetrical)
Then set the lower quarter constant, so you can spool up the heli under a little negative pitch.

Those are starting values, subject to fine tuning after test flight. But you get the idea.

I agree with the "hummingbird on crack". On the other hand, you want the heli to act like the one you know from the simulator. If you suddenly transition into fixed-pitch territory (beginners don't use idle-up - you're running out of negative pitch and then you're controlling throttle instead), the whole game gets oh so much more difficult.
I've been following this thread for a while now thinking I might try a CP helo one day. But time and budget have kept me on the sidelines and probably will for some time. Until I get a CP, I guess I won't fully understand some of these discussions.

The main reason I would want a CP helo as opposed to the FP models I do have, is to fly a bigger 4 channel bird. I don't know of a FP 4 channel bird bigger than about 15 inches rotor diameter. If I buy a bigger CP helo, I see no reason to set it up for 3D, negative pitch, etc. If I fly it as I do my FP helos, why would I want a -2 for the first setting? Won't gravity bring me back if I back off the throttle? I assume it will bring me back quicker if a -2 is set but I don't need it now. Why set it just because I bought a CP bird? I've read I need it for wind gust, but I don't need it now when I hit a gust.

Can't I fly with large diameter blades with fixed pitches or at least the flat bottom cambered blades? Or do they not come in larger sizes? Forgive my naivete' but does flying a CP mean you have to use CP blades and all the negative settings that go with it?
Don
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 10:37 AM
like a rock!
gravityKills's Avatar
Finland
Joined Oct 2007
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>> Won't gravity bring me back if I back off the throttle?

ultimately yes, not necessarily where you want though.

Don't let yourself be intimidated by all the talk. CP helis are probably easier to handle than FP, because they do exactly what you tell them. And when you say "down", the heli is supposed to say "yessir" and not put up a discussion about "I won't give you negative pitch because you may not yet be ready for it" and instead shut down the motor
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 01:46 PM
Eternal beginner
Rollmops67's Avatar
France, Alsace, Strasbourg
Joined Jun 2012
640 Posts
Hello !

I've read this very interesting tread, and now that I took the jump to a CP heli I though I could share how things are going.
Before that a little background to my RC heli "career".
I began in may 2012 with a coax, an Esky Lama V4, after that in july I bought a single rotor FP heli (a MJX F45, very capable and sturdy bird), wich I began to master after about one month and some crashes.
Actually I'm able to fly it fast (for a FP heli), and without any crash.
In october I decided to do the jump to the CP heli, in form of a flybarless Walkera V200D03 with 3 axis gyro.
I was astonished how a CP heli, even with tame settings was difficult just to hover (must say the V200D03 was a bad choice, too nervous for me), I had no pleasure, just stress.
So I sold the V200D03.
In december I bought a Master CP, also 200 sized, but with a 6 axis gyro, and known to be very stable. (Some call it a flying elephant, but for a beginner that's a good thing)
After a crash at the second flight (because of an orientaion lost at some distance AND the fact I was not accustomed at CP helis faster reactions) I decided to fly my CP heli as if I would be a total beginner.
At the beginning just hovering, then some translations, and now after about 25 flights (without crash) I am able to take not too bad turns without fear !
I fly with a linear pitch curve from about -2,5 to + 12 (the 12 are a little overkill, but they help when the heli "falls" in it's downwash)
My first flights went only in normal mode with a throttle curve of 0-35-70-75-75-80-88 (the 80 and 88 at the end are just here to maintain a constant head speed as when the pitch increases, the motor needs more power).
After about 10 flights, when I became more confident, I programmed the stunt mode with a throttle curve of 75-75-75-75-80-88 and the same pitch curve as in normal mode.
So after spinning up the motor in normal mode, and even before taking off, I can switch to stunt mode at about half throttle.
Actually I try to get accustomed at using the throttle hold switch after landing, but it still happens that after landing I wonder why the rotor doesn't stop when I go to 0 with the throttle stick ! Well 6 months of FP helis flying leave their trace in the brain !
But it gets better flight after flight (practice practice practice).
The throttle and pitch curves I use satisfy me, they are 100% OK for normal flying.
I'm not really interested in 3D flying, but once I've become good in normal and "sports" flying (maybe in 3 or 4 months, I hope), I think I will try things like rolls, flips and loopings.
And for that I will change my pitch curve to -5 to +12 so in the moments when the heli will be inverted (for example at the top of a looping) I will have enough negative pitch to almost compensate it's weight.

Just my 2 cent.

Regards, Roland
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 03:07 PM
Eternal beginner
Rollmops67's Avatar
France, Alsace, Strasbourg
Joined Jun 2012
640 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifinsword View Post
The main reason I would want a CP helo as opposed to the FP models I do have, is to fly a bigger 4 channel bird. I don't know of a FP 4 channel bird bigger than about 15 inches rotor diameter.
Don
Look at his tread about the MJX F45 (21 inches rotor) :
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1597711

Very nice heli, cheap, VERY robust, and can handle some wind.
I have two of them, and it's lots of fun !

Roland
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 10:30 AM
Red Merle ALES
Curtis Suter's Avatar
United States, Mt, Helena
Joined Apr 2002
5,544 Posts
Hello,

I have lurked here reading for over half a year now. What a great thread.

I'm a new heli pilot, well I built and barely flew a Logo 10 about nine years ago. I didn't enjoy it and sold it. I got the bug about two years ago and purchased a used Trex 450 and am now just barely able to hover nose in and easily fly figure 8's. Oh, I do have over 30 years in R/C, mainly gliders and some electrics.

I'm putting together my second Trex450 right now so I have a spare for when I eventually crash the first one.

I have no desire to fly upside down. My goal is to fly constant altitude and speed backward figure 8's.

So I thought this method was great but it made sense that I would have better resolution in the throttle stick from -3 to +8 degrees pitch total stick movement.

So all I'm saying is THANKS!
This method is the way ALL folks should fly in my opinion. When you wish to do nice slow unaerobatic flight you use IDLE UP 1 and then when you want to light your hair on fire you can always have an IDLE-UP2 for your 3D stuff.

Anyway, just my opinion from a semi-newbie.

Lovin' It!
Curtis
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 10:31 AM
Blue Skies
hifinsword's Avatar
United States, VA, Williamsburg
Joined May 2012
1,201 Posts
Bigger FP helo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollmops67 View Post
Look at his tread about the MJX F45 (21 inches rotor) :
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1597711

Very nice heli, cheap, VERY robust, and can handle some wind.
I have two of them, and it's lots of fun !

Roland
Thanks Roland. That's a possibility but I hear there's a new WL Toys model or 2 out, the V912 & V913. They would work with my DH 9116 transmitters. I have 2 DH birds and 4 txs. I can wait a couple of months and hope they'll be here soon.
Don
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 11:04 AM
like a rock!
gravityKills's Avatar
Finland
Joined Oct 2007
2,453 Posts
>> -3 to +8 degrees
that'll get you safely down. Even if the heli is unwilling.

>> speed backward figure 8's.
hint: Start slowly, and learn to stop at any time you want to.
There are lots of people - usually with fixed-wing background - who can only fly fast. It's in some sense easier, as one needs to learn only a few reflexes. But it's a dead-end.

I once shot this little video what you could practise with a 450. Doesn't look like much,but this is absurdly difficult (interesting part starts at 0:45)
From 0 to 3D: Hovering variations (2 min 5 sec)


Figure 8s, some ideas here (this is a .30-size heli)
From 0 to 3D: Banked Figure 8 (0 min 29 sec)


I'd do ordinary turns in one direction first. Can't do figure 8 without those:
Banked Turns (0 min 35 sec)
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 11:21 AM
Red Merle ALES
Curtis Suter's Avatar
United States, Mt, Helena
Joined Apr 2002
5,544 Posts
gravitykills,

Thanks! Awesome!. When doing the fast figure 8's how much collective/throttle are you applying, when and what direction? Or is there enough inertia that there isn't much required?

Thanks
Curtis
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 11:34 AM
like a rock!
gravityKills's Avatar
Finland
Joined Oct 2007
2,453 Posts
I think you'll have to discover that for yourself, but it'll come naturally (as does speed - if you spend a couple of hours just trying to hover the move, I guarantee it will be time well spent, no matter how badly it looks).

When flying at speed, the typical beginner way / mistake is to err on the side of caution, and trade speed for altitude. When they take a turn, the heli always climbs (too much collective and / or too little aileron). It's IMO pointless to think about the sticks, but watch what your heli does and try not to pick up this habit.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 11:58 AM
Red Merle ALES
Curtis Suter's Avatar
United States, Mt, Helena
Joined Apr 2002
5,544 Posts
Thanks.

Would you have a video on slow figure 8's as I'd like to see the difference in bank.

Slow and steady as she goes in this thread!

Curtis
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 12:28 PM
like a rock!
gravityKills's Avatar
Finland
Joined Oct 2007
2,453 Posts
This one could be useful
Banked Turns tutorial (sim) (0 min 23 sec)


and
backwards8_2.wmv (0 min 21 sec)


maybe this one, also quite fast
bwcircles.wmv (1 min 8 sec)


The sticks are interesting insofar as they often give no hint of the figure that is flown.
It's 10 % stick input for the move, 90 % corrections (and there isn't even any wind in the sim).
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 11:23 AM
Eternal beginner
Rollmops67's Avatar
France, Alsace, Strasbourg
Joined Jun 2012
640 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravityKills View Post

I once shot this little video what you could practise with a 450. Doesn't look like much,but this is absurdly difficult (interesting part starts at 0:45)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjdefDO5Cvs

Figure 8s, some ideas here (this is a .30-size heli)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p00XZOIvjMw

I'd do ordinary turns in one direction first. Can't do figure 8 without those:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TREfA1Kb1nQ
Awesome flying !!
It will be still take time for me to be able to do such quick 8's...
A question : how long do you fly helis ?

Regards, Roland
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