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Old Sep 16, 2012, 01:41 AM
Complete RC Idiot Savant
The Netherlands
Joined Nov 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eminemin View Post
I never flew barless but i am more en more drawn to that idea, hear that its improves your controlles over the heli to.

Is it a improvement to fly with bars ?
Its a young technology ? isn't flying barless in use by real heli's for ages now ? and isn't it a just a matter of copying this in to smaller proportions ?

Edit :

I read on a site the advantages for barless, you can not go wrong how its explained or to good to be treu ? :

•Longer flight times.

•Big increase in power.

•Great stability in wind.

•Less mechanical setting on head.

•Very stable but at the same time has much more responsive and agile and faster.

•Use lower power motor and battery pack with the same power output due to great reduction of drag from the removal of the old flybar system.

•Less rational mass in the head, gives higher rotational speeds (while maintaining safe loads), longer flight times (less rotational energy) and tune-ability

•Way better operation in windy condition, longer flight times, more power.

•Crashes better- no flybar to untangle
All of these advantages are simply true.

It does have downsides too, that are often overlooked or just plain, neglected because "newer is better by definition":
-It does require an electronic unit, that can range in price from a few Euro's to a couple of hundreds of Euro's. For a 5000 Euro scale helicopter not a problem, but for a 250 Euro 450 size it more than doubles the price
-It requires usually higher price class digital servo's. The problem here is not so much the price of the servo's, but more the higher demands those servo's set to the receivers power supply: you might need a separate BEC circuit, making your build (admittedly only slightly) more complicated, and your small helicopter more crowded: more wires, more "little black boxes", more possibilities to do something wrong
-some systems are very easy to set-up, some not so.
-Some systems need a regular software update. That might not be a problem in itself, but it does say something about it obviously not yet being "perfect" when you bought it.
-some systems require internet downloads and laptop connections to set up, which CAN make additional equipment next to your E-stab necessary.
-because there is lot of competition between lots of availlable systems and because there are lots of "expert-opinions" most pilots are continuously looking for "the best system" which makes it likely you will spend a lot of money on upgrading or changing over to the next better system.

And for me, (but this is very personal) the biggest reason to stay away from electronic stabilisation: it does not feel natural (at least, not to me) and all feedback you have with a flybar or a multiblade rotor is completely lost. The actual flying, that I started this hobby for and that I enjoy so much, becomes a bit boring with an FBL system. If you are flying 3D, that is not a problem, because in that discipline, the 3D is the purpose, not the basic flying itself.
But I like "normal, scale like" flying, and then the fun is in the flying itself. E-stab takes all that fun away from me.

So i fly most of my helicopters flybarless, but also without E-stabilisation, just because for me that is the biggest challenge.

Brgds, Bert
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 02:33 PM
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United States, MI, Lansing
Joined Sep 2012
251 Posts
when i started flying, my first heli was a FBL 400 size ccpm and it was very.... hmmmm.... touchy and sensitive. not a bad thing, just had to get used to it. and at the time i thought it was supposed to be like that. then i got a 450 black angel with the flybar and i love that little bird. however it does feel slow to respond and has quite a bit of lag. i have a four bladed head that is fully articulated and that thing is crisp. so i decided to to buy a FBL head and e-stab, now just waiting to get back home to put it all together. btw i do not fly 3D... every time i try i get over zealous and crash.
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 05:51 PM
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The Netherlands, UT, Nieuwegein
Joined Sep 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexless View Post
If you haven't already, try the WLToys V929. I have some of these and since it's regularly quite windy here I fly the V929 very frequently in winds up ~40-50km (NOTE: It's not as much fun in big winds but you can fly it). Various people tell me this is a good stepping stone to CP helis.
I dont see myself flying a quadcopter its just not my thing think about going maybe heavier, still have 2 Kyosho Caliber 30 heli with nitro laying around here, time to set them in to the clouds.

Have the feeling that the F45 is to light and thats why the wind have to much grip on it,its not that it dont fly against the wind but as soon as you take a corner its going like crazy much correcting and slides. Should be much better with a heavier aircraft i think..
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 06:05 PM
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Ok, you give me a lot to think over....

But how i understand it they are 2 models to flb, with and without E-stabilisation.
With costs more have more wires and electronics to it but is easier to handle and without is more simple costs less but is harder to handle..

Am i on the right track or did i understand it wrong ? and is there any suggestions you could make about heli with flb who are affordable (outdoor).

Thanxs and greetings
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 08:52 PM
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United States, MI, Holland
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Forgive me for potentially derailing a great thread, but I have to chime in with a comment!

Am I the only one who sees the name "CaptJac" and thinks...

"Captain Jack will get you high tonight..."

In an odd way - this makes sense (in a different way than that lyric actually meant, of course)!

Anyway - I had to get this off my chest.

I am a heli noob, currently flying a 120 SR (FP not CP) - but these threads are very informational to me. I am just starting to understand the throttle curves, pitch curves, and DR/Expo settings after picking up a DX7S radio after about 3 days of flying the 120 SR with the included RTF radio.

I keep thinking my next heli will be an mCPx or another micro CP of some sort. I just need to get the brain trained and the muscle memory for nose-in hovering (which is improving).

Thanks for all your great info, CaptJac!
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 07:50 AM
Blue Skies
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United States, VA, Williamsburg
Joined May 2012
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Light vs heavies flying

Quote:
Originally Posted by eminemin View Post
I dont see myself flying a quadcopter its just not my thing think about going maybe heavier, still have 2 Kyosho Caliber 30 heli with nitro laying around here, time to set them in to the clouds.

Have the feeling that the F45 is to light and thats why the wind have to much grip on it,its not that it dont fly against the wind but as soon as you take a corner its going like crazy much correcting and slides. Should be much better with a heavier aircraft i think..
I can't speak to the F45 but I do have a Blade 120SR and a DH9116. The Blade is very light compared to the 9116. I've found the lighter helo much easier to control in wind (or windless) because it is much more responsive and predictable. The DH 9116 goes very fast in a straight line but doesn't respond well at all to aileron inputs and tends to just keep rolling in a turn. Yes there is much correcting with the lighter helo but it goes where you point it. There are also constant corrections with the 9116 too but only because you have to keep compensating for its slow response to the earlier inputs. If you fly a tame circuit, the heavy bird may be easier to control in wind but if it starts rolling, you will find the inertia will be hard to correct and less predicable than the light helo.
Don
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 09:28 AM
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The Netherlands, UT, Nieuwegein
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Makes allso sense but i was thinking how lighter something is in the air how easier it is for the wind to get grip on, lets say like a plastic bag.....

One way to experience this is to try but first have to setup my heavier heli before putting it in the air. Once it falls there is no starting over like the F45.
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Old Sep 22, 2012, 06:19 AM
Complete RC Idiot Savant
The Netherlands
Joined Nov 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eminemin View Post
Ok, you give me a lot to think over....

But how i understand it they are 2 models to flb, with and without E-stabilisation.
With costs more have more wires and electronics to it but is easier to handle and without is more simple costs less but is harder to handle..

Am i on the right track or did i understand it wrong ? and is there any suggestions you could make about heli with flb who are affordable (outdoor).

Thanxs and greetings
Euhm... it is FBL (Flybarless), not flb....

I do not exactly know what the usual slang is in every separate part of the world, but just to prevent confusion:

Usually (at least in my area) FBL is referring to a helicopter without a mechanical flybar, instead having an electronic stabilisation system.

Helicopters without mechanical Flybar AND without electronic stabilisation, are usually referred to as "rigid rotor".

Yes, you are understanding correct, a helicopter with electronic stabilisation, provided the system is adjusted correctly, is pretty much equal to flying a mechanically flybarred helicopter as to required skills.
The downside is, that a wrongly adjusted system will actively try to destroy your helicopter, and even a correctly set-up system is only as bright as you are: if you give cyclic imput while the helicopter is still on the ground, the system will try everything to make that tilting motion happen, which can give some surprising results. A mechanical flybar or rigid rotor will do no such thing....

A rigid helicopter is in itself not really that much harder to fly (it basically responds to the same imput, in the same way) but has serious reduced stability, serious increased tendency to react (more or less violently) to any disturbance from either wind or quick changes of direction, and tends to respond to stick imput a lot faster, making it a whole different kind of animal when it comes to learning to fly....
The bigger they get, the less problematic it becomes, but then you are talking sizes of over 7 ft Rotordiameter.
But once you get the hang of it, it's good fun.

As to affordable: that totally depends on what one would call affordable.
I have recently commissioned my small EC 135 that cost only approx 300 Euro for the bare minimum to fly (Fuselage, mechanics, servos, motor, ESC, Gyro etc. I don't count radio and receiver). An electronic system would have increased the cost from anywhere between 100 and 500 Euro, depending on choice of system and choice of servo's.

Brgds, Bert
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 03:09 AM
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Great topic, and at least a civil discussion.

I have zero interest in 3D. My first memories of a heli are the sikorski recovering the gemini capsules. No 3D stuff there.
I'm not sure when or if I'll get a heli with a scale appearance, but I still try to fly scale.
When I set my 450 up a little over a year ago I had to do a lot of digging to find anything other than 3D settings and curves (+10 and -10). Mine has +8 and -2. I toned it down to +8 because to me it makes it less agressive and smoother, but still has enough authority when I need it.
I do zero degree at center stick just because it it feels right for me, but my way isn't the only way.
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 12:58 PM
Complete RC Idiot Savant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karlik View Post
I do zero degree at center stick just because it it feels right for me, but my way isn't the only way.
Try 4~5 degrees (depending on your headspeed) at midstick, and make the curve "fluent" regressive (for example stick position 0-25-50-75-100% gives in degrees -2, 2, 5, 7, 8 degrees or similar)

It will take you a while to get used to the midstick hoovering, but you will be really amazed how docile the helicopter gets on pitch, and is way more suitable for scale like puttering around, realistic approaches and take offs. Things like realistic flare-outs just before landing are getting a lot easier because the sharp change in the pitchcurve at the transition from negative and positive pitch is gone.
Other advantage is that properly trimmed, your helicopter will fly straight and level with all sticks centered, which makes it slightly easier to fly left and right hand turns the same....

Brgds, Bert
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Last edited by Brutus1967; Sep 23, 2012 at 01:06 PM.
Old Sep 23, 2012, 02:22 PM
Registered User
United States, OR, Happy Valley
Joined Aug 2012
199 Posts
[QUOTE=CaptJac;. Just like a full scale helicopter. Note: Full scale helicopters do not rocket off the ground.
,[/QUOTE] only because they can't as any hotshot pilot would live too.
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Old Sep 25, 2012, 09:01 AM
I hate waiting for parts
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United States, NC, Garner
Joined Apr 2001
6,725 Posts
I am THRILLED to see this thread has lasted several months and dozens of pages without it degrading into a war of what kind of heli flying is the best. This is a WONDERFUL thread to let folks know that yes, there are other styles of flying helis besides 3D. Hey, if that's what you want to do, then more power to ya. Just please understand there are several facets to flying R/C helis besides 3D.

There are certain members of this forum that have stated things like, "If you say you prefer to fly sport and not 3D, then that's just an excuse to say you don't know how to fly helis at all." Not sure if those comments were tongue-in-cheeck but I totally disagree. This hobby has something for everyone. And just because you buy a 3D helicopter doesn't mean you have to fly it 3D. I'm the perfect example...

I started off with a Blade 400 and once I learned, I moved up to a T-Rex 500. I learned by using a flight stabilization system rather than a simulator. When my skills and confidence grew, I minimized and eventually eliminated the system. Once I was good with the T-Rex 500 I went to a T-Rex 600e. I tried my hand at basic heli aerobatics such as loops, rolls, a little inverted hovering, stall turns, etc., but it just wasn't for me.

I discovered scale flight and I haven't looked back. The T-Rex 500 is mounted in a Blackhawk fuse and the T-Rex 600e is mounted in an AS-500 Eurocopter fuse. I've got lots of expo, shallow pitch curves, low headspeeds, and I love it. The precision flight required for scale is challenging and appealing to me. The helis are heavy and docile due to the weights of the fusealge, flybar weights, and cyclic setups.

Thanks again for starting this, Capt. Jack. Good to see a strong following of "the other" part of heli flight.
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Old Sep 25, 2012, 09:52 AM
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Aachen Germany
Joined Dec 2007
1,995 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Then View Post
There are certain members of this forum that have stated things like, "If you say you prefer to fly sport and not 3D, then that's just an excuse to say you don't know how to fly helis at all."
I'm still spitting out feathers from being tarred and feathered and run out of town over at the Helifreak forum. They were not only vehemently opposed to my viewpoint - but when I dared to mention 0 degrees center stick not only made the collective overly sensitive for beginners, but you lost half of your collective resolution because everything below center stick was negative - one of the control ops questioned if I was even competent to be teaching students in my Phoenix Simulator Flight School. This escalated to the point I was locked out from being able to post. Their justification was I was using the forum and my school to sell my book. This hurt. After discussing this with my base commander - my wife - I packed it up. Unfortunately there were a lot of flight school students in the holding pattern I was unable to contact. I hope they eventually get the word.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 10:39 AM
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I don't do helifreak at all anymore. I joined to watch the setup videos, and I suspected that was a bad sign. After all, I don't have to join youtube or vimeo etc to watch videos. I'm pretty sure helifreak gets advertising money based on registered users, but whatever.

My comments there were treated with the "you don't have a high enough post count to know anything yet" attititude. The last topic I was involved in was a question about solar powered helicopters. My response was along the lines that solar power was possible in fixed wing, but not really in a heli. I was (and still am) looking forward to a hydrogen cell powered heli, and even provided youtube links to rc cars that run on fuel cells. I was called a troll.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 11:51 AM
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Brutus1967
I learned on FP, and I still have two FP helis that I sometimes hover in the back corner of my apt parking lot, and take to the park along with the 450.
After some trial and error (and fine tuning) I settled on my current curves because the 450 hovers at about the same stick position as the FP birds. As my skills and flying style improves or changes, my settings will probably change as well. But for me, at least right now, consistancy is important.
But again, I'm not saying 0 at midstick is THE right way. New guys would be much better served to learn from CaptJac than from me.
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