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Old Nov 13, 2012, 11:25 PM
Bob
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I am nearing the end of my involvement with this forum. We set out to deliver balanced, unbiased reporting and discussion for the good of the class (without ego's or discrimination). Unfortunately, (and I was warned) it didn't take long before an International poster and his fellow Australia mate, found it necessary to attack and insult our National body, this in simple terms is beyond acceptability by anyone's standard.

Regrettably, we are now faced reality, the imminent collapse of the class in it's present form, and all because people were not prepared to sallow their pride and compromise. At no stage has anyone shown genuine interest to setup a meeting, face to face in open and honest dialogue. Instead we have had to endure the attitude "it's my way or the highway" it's selfish, childish and belongs in the school yard.

Olive branches have been offered (hell I'll throw in the whole tree), and all have been refused. Not once did anyone say, well this is a reasonable starting point, let's get together and nut it out! Mistakes were made on both sides of the fence and yet the world continues to revolve, but look at the consequences. If only we had the fortitude to man up, make the necessary apologies and get on with producing a solution for unity. That's was my wishful thinking.

Remember, opportunities to resolve the differences were there forth the taking!.

My involvement for unity has been futile, and it's time for me to move on and let someone else take up the challenge.

To that end, I am seeking some who is willing to continue this thread in a respectful and unbiased manner. Please let me know by the end of December. If I have no found someone within that time frame, I'll lock this Thread.

STOP; THINK; RESPECT!
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 03:04 AM
Bob
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Quote:
Well Put This is the reason the silent majority did not join this group
G'day Soling 11,

Now that you have broken your silence, perhaps you would be a better candidate than me to continue this Forum Thread. I don't have the answers but it appears you certain have the background and that is a very good starting point.

Send me a PM or simply, take over as of now and my thanks go with you.

Cheers,

Bob

EC12 Class, first and Foremost!
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 08:24 AM
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Bob

I know where you are coming from.

Have to say the EC12 Class in Australia is following along the lines of what has happened in every other country that has brought in this you beaut NEW MOULD..

The Older Boats get left behind & the skippers get disenfranchised rather quickly. All Bully Boy Tactics...

There is no sympathy nor thought to History.. The Victors write the History...

What has become of the EC12, you just have to ask some of the older NZ Guys..

GOD only knows what agreements were made @ the last US run Morgan Black... Because that is where the seeds were sown & the plans to demolish & destroy the current Australian EC12 Fleets was decided..

Give me a Huill & I'll knock you up a Mould for under $200.. Maybe 5 or 6 pretty quickly.. And Mine would be Identical....


So the price paid by AEC12OA IMHO was Astronomical & Out of This World..


Even the US EC12 site can't guarantee Identical Moulds.. Reading the Potted history & the suggestion of a flopped Mould from the Orginal Test Tank Model doesn't seem to be quite as some have made us all believe.. Justy another Compromise Mould... "The 1995 new standard class plug is based upon the middle-of-the-road Puritan"

The One Glaring Fault with the Australian Appproach is the unwillingness to guarantee that ALL Current EC12's can continue to race as they always have.

The Party's are so far apart that I think the 2 Classes should just go their seperate ways. No doubt the EC12 Club that started it all in Australia will continue.

The Legacy of The NZ & US members will always be their involvement in the destruction of what was once a strong class in Australia.

Let the North have their little IE12 & the rest can have the EC12 as before..

With the recent cancellation of events up North, you can only measure the strength in the AEC12OA when it can't field even a small fleet.



US EC12 History makes for interesting reading....

In 1992 the IYRU-MYRD placed the IEC-12M class on a two-year probation with intention to remove sanctioning unless the issues are resolved.


The IEC-12M plug is now in Australia.



The Simple Answer is staring us in the face...


The ARYA are the Sanctioning Body for any event & the controling body for the EC12 Class in Australia. Like it of Not, That's How It Is...

The ARYA need to take a Heavy & Strong Stance with the EC12. I suggest they put together a Motion for the Upcoming AGM to de-list the NATIONAL CLASS STATUS of the EC12 Class within Australia.

This gives adequate time for the Party's to come together, Find Common Ground & Move Forward. Get the House in Order or lose recognition.. Simple as that...

If that can't be achieved then off they go (EC12) & start to rebuild the foundations of the Class.. The EC12 is then relinquished back to the Skippers to decide their own fate, as happens in every other class that does not have National Class Recognitioin. No need for an NCC or one single person to bear the brunt of all the piffle that comes from that other mob..

Mr M & Mr T & all the Klingons can then start their own little process to regain the Recognition, which will take many years as they build back the foundations & meet the ARYA criteria for such NC Status..


Cheers

JOhn
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 01:10 AM
Bob
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John,

You've missed your calling, you should have been a prophet!

All the best,

Bob
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 01:31 AM
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Bob

Thanks but I am a G.O.D. (Grumpy Old Degenerate)

I know the toll this EC12 issue in Australia has taken on you & the poor communnication standards of the AEC12OA don't help anybody's cause.

The Silent Majority as Soling says will remain silent. It simply isn't worth the trouble. If I were you I would leave the Thread Open & see what happens.. Some come back from the dead sometimes years later..

To resolve this impass with the constant badgering by AEC12OA personnel every time something is tried to move the EC12 Class forward, I can only see the dropping of National Class Status as the solution.. That way Colin D & others no longer have to worry about the ramblings & can oppose any attempt to re-classify because the required criteria is not met.

Whetehr the ARYA Committee have the fortitude to stand by the Constitution is another matter.. Everything else has been tried with One Constant Opposition.. Mr M... So It's over to the ARYA to resolve the problem...

If Mr T & Mr H think that they have it in spades by keeping silent they are sorely mistaken.. The Only spade they have is the one digging the hole for the death of the class... Richard's the pair of them...

Who cares.. Their Fleet of 3 can have at it...
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 03:49 AM
Bob
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John,

As you are aware, the ARYA President recommended a meeting to sort through the problems,, this was rejected vide e-mail. A number of genuine proposals were presented to the OA,, these were rejected. An attempt was made to change the Rule base and by this time, IMHO, the ARYA had enough of the unwillingness from EC12 owners to meet as adults and find common ground.

Time is fast approaching the ARYA Nationals and frankly, I think they would rather focus their efforts on what is achievable!

Happy teachings

PS. Steve suggests - RC Motorbikes are the way to go!
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 07:53 AM
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Nope

R/C Mini's are better fun.. Bikes take too much to keep stable at speed.. Last count 10 Cars... & the Tyrell P34 still in the Box waiting for some build time..

Silly me even has a Land Yacht...

http://www.modellandyachts.com/page/8758188



All good Fun.. What it should be all about.. Politics always destroys what is good in most things...

Still trhink the ARYA would take a stance if Colin asked to remove the NC Recognition. Put the onus on the other mob to come to the table or lose their opportunity to advance their cause by many many years.

Like I said before the Prez of the OA needs to Fall on his Sword.. He kept tellling me he wanted to... Horse's Mouth Stuff..

Made his usual remarks through others then went into hiding never to be held to account for his actions or words..

I think that makes 2 ARYA Presidents that gave him the same suggestion.. Obviously the same result from Mr M...

Like Albert Einstein said: Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

So we must do something different.. Radical But Different... Give the EC12 back to the Skippers & let them get back to sailing in peace, without the Political Posturing of the OA.....

Colin you need to find a way to give peace & support to your fellow EC12 skippers...
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 07:01 PM
Bob
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Gents,

Despite the lack of cooperation from some owners, the NCC, Colin Durran, has continually worked with the ARYA executive to find common ground and attempt resolution.

As recent as this morning, Colin continues to supply proposals to the ARYA and to my surprise, the executive continue to be involved.

I can't stress the seriousness of this issue to highly and frankly, all EC12 owners need to show there support and encouragement to Colin and the ARYA before it's too late. There is very little time remaining for resolution; the AGM is looming.

Thanks Colin and many thanks to the ARYA executive.

My mistake, I have neglected to include thanks for those close to Colin for their input and Mr. Ken Dobbie. For those who may not be aware, Ken Dobbie has been associated with the EC12 class over an extended period from personal interest to his official capacity as ARYA secretary. When sponsorship was difficult to obtain, Ken was always ready to assist and did so for many years.

Thank You.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 11:43 PM
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Bob

I think that is the way to progress things. Colin was elected by the ARYA State Reps to be the NCC.

Regardless of what some think of the process or how this is done, these are what is expected & has been done this way for many years.

Mr M gave away his opportunity in previous year when he abandoned the Class & The NCC Position. He was there to represent his views & not that of the majority of EC12 Skippers. Which IMHO is where he started to go wrong. There for selfish needs & not to represent the class as an NCC should.

A good thing he resigned from NCC position when he did.

Not sure how much interest there is from the States where EC12 is not active. Out of Sight Out of Mind.

But the EC12 is only one class & what really is before the ARYA committee is the betterment of Radio Sailing in general.

Standards need to be set & then enforced. From what I have seen Colin has tried almost everything he can to resolve the isues, but as normal Mr M rejects everything.

Sad Unfortunate thing I see is the OA fails to provide for any reasonable alternatives or even provides a clear vision of his own. Dances around with Tirades of self indulgence that rightly turn people away.

The OA bit the hand of the ARYA during the last executive Tenure & has done nothing to improve the behaviour. Then expects something different.

I simply can't work out the OA.. Not least of all the Severe Problems they are having with Manufacture of Hulls to a set standard.

Yes production is slow, My Guess is OA membership is or will be dropping as the words & promises from the OA are found to be a little wanting.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 01:25 AM
Bob
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I have no idea what the OA is doing, as you are aware, OA information is Restricted to members only.

They shouldn't be having any problems with hull production, after all it's not rocket science. But, if not done correctly, the consequences for the mould are considerable and the integrity of hulls will be compromised.

There are too many variables to understand what the problem would be!

Surely they have prior experience with fibreglass?
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 02:32 AM
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I have to agree no Information is available from the OA..

Sad part is Members are as much in the dark as non-members..

Information is as Rare & Scarce as Pink Unicorn Droppings...

So little production going on I can only guess working to their exacting specifications has found the weakness..

5.1.3 The minimum weight of a hull, measured with inwales but without deck or rudder shall be 1000 grams. The hull builder must certify this weight.

If you don't know your craft then this is going to be a difficult thing.

But then there is this..

1.2.5 WEIGHT Only a yacht that has been weighed by an official measurer and had its “official” weight entered on the yacht’s measurement certificate will be eligible to race.

And This;

2.2 Only a measurer officially recognised by the AEC12OA.Inc. shall measure a yacht, her spars, sails and equipment and sign measurement forms.

Who knows what has delayed production... Maybe it's the Gel Coat, Maybe the Fibre Matting, Maybe the Resin.. Or All of The Above...


If they haven't got it right & they mess with the combinations soon the mould could be destroyed.. It Will definately need a refurbish even before they get 6 boats on the water.. Then it will need to be recertified as a viable mould...

Nobody in OZ to do that one... This is a Monopoly Controlled by the US, supposedly EC12 Assoc...

What is actually going on is anybody's guess but I do know MR M isn't pleased that a vast number of Skippers are not supporting his vision....


Cheers
John
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 03:59 AM
Bob
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Quote:
2.2 Only a measurer officially recognised by the AEC12OA.Inc. shall measure a yacht, her spars, sails and equipment and sign measurement forms.
Fair Comments,

The (AEC12OA) regulation is specific to an IE12. It's not an EC12 and more importantly, the IE12 RC Yacht is not recognised by the ARYA. Subsequently, the regulation has no bearing on existing ARYA EC12 Rule Base.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Viking50 View Post
Fair Comments,

The (AEC12OA) regulation is specific to an IE12. It's not an EC12 and more importantly, the IE12 RC Yacht is not recognised by the ARYA. Subsequently, the regulation has no bearing on existing ARYA EC12 Rule Base.
Bob

I think that is perhaps the MOST IMPORTANT thing to remember.

An IE12 is NOT an EC12..


Mr M had the opportunity of having his Mould Certified within Australia & rated as an EC12 under the current rules. All avenues were put in place to assist his OA group to come Into the Fold.. His OA rejected the Opportunity.


The Real Reason this is happening is not about the Mould or the EC12...

From the OA website...

to be the sole Australian organization on all matters concerning the EC12, including rules, measurement, national and state events, etc;


What I find curious is that this is an IE12 as decided on by Mr M, Mr T, Mr H & Mr W (2 of which are O'Seas & should stay out of Aust affairs)

And One is only a Fill-In & not an Elected Official..


Personally I think the ARYA also has a right to require the AEC12OA drop it's name as it is not the Authority for the EC12 Class within Australia nor does it represent EC12 Skippers in any capacity. The ARYA can request that Qld delist AEC12OA as a club as it projects false & confusing statments & opinions in regards to Overall Authority for the EC12 Class & as such destabailises Radio Sailing in Australia by its actions & failures to honour & uphold the requiremenst for affiliation under the ARYA Constitution..

What it is really all about is EGO & POWER.....


The name is purely there to Bluff & Confuse anybody & everybody into believing they (OA) are the One & Only Source in Australia when it comes to the EC12 Class.

purely rhetorical... ... Imagine if we setup the AEC12OA (American EC12 Owners Association) & started dictating to the US Skippers.. Do you think they would take it lieing down.. ??? Not that we would even think or presume to interfere in any way with the running of any class in another country..

The same should happen in Australia but unfortunately there are motivations by some people to destroy our current foundations. What is said in Public is One Thing.. What is done in Private is completely different..

No doubt the next attack will be to have me sanctioned for Speaking the Truth.. Can't have that in Radio Sailing in Australia if it doesn't look good.

My Apologies for not being one of the Silent Majority. I feel strongly about protecting the rights of Skippers in ALL Classes to be able to speak Openly & Honestly about all things Radio Sailing.


Mr M etc always have the right of reply & are welcome to put their position forward.. Instead they choose to hide away & hope the Spotlights don't burn too brightly

Cheers
John
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:32 PM
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...

Well I thought I had seen & heard most things but the latest development in the tactics from the OA sicken me quite a bit. How Low can you go, manipulating a man with a disability..

Just had a lengthy call from Steve who has suffered a stroke a while back. He had been on the improve but clearly this latest tactic by Mr M & the OA is so underhanded that his Illness is deteriorating. I could grasp this the longer the call went on.

Steve tells me Mr M has phoned him to ask that he intervene with me to cease posting on the web., as it doesn't look good for his OA.

It has been confirmed (by yet another source) that Mr M is saying he wants to resign from the Presidency of OA. So why doesn't he just get on with it... And give the class a chance to recover..

I told Steve that I found that Mr M asking him to act & speak for him is wrong. For the sake of his health he should tell Mr M to put whatever he has to say in writing & find some way of compromising with the ARYA & EC12 Class in Australia.

If not then if what Mr M is telling Steve the ARYA have the matter in hand & will be acting sooner rather than later. Steve confirmed Mr M told him the National Class Status is being looked at strongly.

So I suggest he hurry Up & Find some common ground on which to move things forward in a Positive Way...

If not then he knows what he has been responsible for. The simple answer is this EC12 Impost in Australia cannot & should not be allowed to go on forever..
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 02:41 AM
Bob
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Hi Folks,

As reported by previous post, I made reference to the efforts being made by our EC12 NCC to find workable solutions that would end the stalemate between the AEC12OA and the ARYA. Thankfully, the ARYA have considered the case and deliberated pros and cons. I believe a decision has been made and will be advised in due course. (I presume notification vide the imminent AGM.)

Regardless of outcome, we have all played a part in this saga, some more than others and I hope the future of the class continues as it rightly deserves too. 2013 will herald a new beginning for owners to step forward and unite in one common goal; the future of the class. It's not rocket science, all we need to do is communicate, compromise, respect fellow owners and move forward!

First priority; The ARYA is to be accepted and respected for it's role as governing body. No acceptance; No respect; No National status!! How hard is that?

Colin, you are to be commended for your tenacity and dedication to the class and your continued push for a united EC12 class in Australia.

Thank you.
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