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Old Dec 15, 2012, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by deafsail View Post
My agree for EC12 http://home.comcast.net/~ghmyc/image...enealogy_B.pdf


Happy Holidays
Baron Bremer
EC12-81 2010 National Champion
JPG File for ease of viewing.

I was especially interested in the Evolution of the Puritan Hull/Mould & its' origins.

Especially with the Manufacture difficulties of moulding from tired moulds.. Obviously significant changes can take place.

As was stated 4th & 5th Generation moulding can only make things worse..

And from a Hull that was #73 from a tired mould..




Has anybody ever thought of seeking approval of the Owner of the Original Plug to "Laser Scan" the Plug to ensure accuracy & to maintain a record of the Hull Shape into the future......

It could also then be replicated with ease & perhaps have CNC Mouldings made which would be as accurate as possible...

Then all the debate about what is the right Hull Shape goes away... And a TRUE ONE DESIGN Hull is possible...
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 01:31 AM
Bob
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G'day Baron Bremer
EC12-81 2010 National Champion (USA)

Thank you for taking time to provide us with a detailed sequence of EC12 History.

The information has certainly provided a number of missing pieces to the jigsaw puzzle.

Thanks again and enjoy the festive season,,,, above all else, keep well and be safe,

Regards,

Bob.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 07:24 PM
Bob
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Hello Gents,

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all contributors who have taken time to help our current situation, we are overwhelmed by your generosity. In particular, Rod Liddy (NZ); Ian Hull-Brown (NZ) Baron Bremer (USA - 2010 Champion) Kevin and John (Aust); including all those helpful people behind the scenes.

Your contributions provided via the forum and off-line e-mails has been significant and will enable us to forge a new beginning from a solid base of practical solution. Please keep in touch, we appreciate everything you have to offer.

Thank you one and all and please enjoy a very Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year 2013.

Keep well and stay Safe.

Best Regards,

Bob.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 10:34 PM
Bob
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2013 EC12 State Process

Hello Gents,

Following the abundance of helpful information gained from these pages, I would like to suggest we establish a meeting in Sydney to discuss and formulate a workable plan to secure the future of the class in both NSW and the ACT.

Perhaps February or March at the latest. This will allow sufficient time to collate forum information together with e-mail content. I also suggest this process be Chaired by our State coordinator, Colin Durran.

Please give this serious thought, compile your ideas and lets work toward a date that will be agreeable to the majority of owners. Additionally, if anyone can suggest a suitable venue, please let us know.

Best Regards,

Bob.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:09 AM
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Bob, forget it.
Consider some thing else.
Have an look at Canterbury J.

Steve
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:35 AM
Silly Old Fart
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But the whole agreement made between Mr M, MR H & Mr W in US was the OA would be the Monopoly in OZ.. (I hate acronyms ). So they could ensure every other mould & supplier was destroyed & put out of production. Only work available for the Mates & prices are based on whatever they want to charge & decide who can compete & when a Boat is available. Mates Rates also apply..

Who Gave these guys the Authority to decide the fate of the EC12 Class in Australia? Perhaps the owners who have enough interest to belong to the owners association?

They should be held accountable for their actions & if found to be acting outside the Code of Conduct set for Radio Sailing then they should be banned.. It's been done before... "The Code of Conduct" where does this exist please?


Not sure what the process would be to obtain a Copy of the US Master Mould.

And at What Cost... Simply request one from the USA owners association. The cost would be amortised over the life of the mould.

Simple & more Viable Option would be to obtain a NZL Boat & Flop a Mould directly off there... Gauges for Keel & Hull could be manufactured to ensure tolerances to Original... Totally against the whole concept and all the work that has been put in by everyone involved over the last twenty years.
To be totally discouraged or even prosecuted.


Then have a mould certified for Construction & it meets with OZ EC12 rules once small amendments to the rules are made.

Solution is the Mould would be Australian Manufacture & Certified EC12...

The Bonus is the IE12 Mould "NOT Certified" would be a Dead Duck... And No Longer needed..

Cost would most likely be minimal & a Boat would also be available for use after the Moulding process.. SEE ABOVE..... If the designation IE should be dropped from the imported mould based in AUS would that placate some of the disagreement in AUS? It is obvious to me as an outsider that the intentions of those in charge or with an interest are basically the same. "To advance the class in Australia and to help the builders and owners to develop a boat which is as close to the standard attained in the rest of the world as is possible. What can be done now to advance that desire.??? There is help out here if it is required.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:55 AM
Silly Old Fart
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219 Posts
Ian can you confirm that the NZ plug is the same as the US plug?
Yes the current NZL mould is made from the 1995 regulation plug as supplied to all the USA builders.

If so I will be willing to make a mould from the plug and produce hulls at material cost plus a little bit.
I would be totally opposed to such a move. See my reply to Waboats above. If you want a mould to use then why not import one from the USA owners association. You would then be the only licensed builder in AUS. Alternatively join with one or two other builders and share the cost. MY QUESTION.... The mould that has caused all the controversy which is currently designated as the IE12 mould is from where please? I still do not fully understand where that came from?
If we can get the OK from NZ the only other problem would be the cost of getting the plug to Australia and returning it to NZ.
I do not speak for anyone except myself but I would be surprised if the NZEC12OA would approve of such an idea.

All the best to everyone for the season and lets hope we can resolve this in the new year. Regards Kevin
Kevin there is all the will in the world to help AUS resolve their challenges and assist with the controlled and friendly expansion of the class. Best wishes to everyone here.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 01:45 AM
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But the whole agreement made between Mr M, MR H & Mr W in US was the OA would be the Monopoly in OZ.. (I hate acronyms ). So they could ensure every other mould & supplier was destroyed & put out of production. Only work available for the Mates & prices are based on whatever they want to charge & decide who can compete & when a Boat is available. Mates Rates also apply..

Who Gave these guys the Authority to decide the fate of the EC12 Class in Australia?

They should be held accountable for their actions & if found to be acting outside the Code of Conduct set for Radio Sailing then they should be banned.. It's been done before...


May I ask a couple of simple questions and offer some simple answers - how did I become part of an "agreement" that doesn't exist? There is no "agreement"

Mates Rates for what?

What "authority" have I been given? None

Mr WABOATS you have criticised me and complimented me on this forum and I cannot fathom how or why you have taken to having a dig at me for what ever reason.

To make my position 100% clear to all:

I am a current financial member of the NZ EC12OA
I am a current financial member of the NZRYA
I am a current financial member of the AEC12OA
I am NOT part of the NZEC12OA management and do not attempt to have any influence over - I am a past President a few years back - Rod Liddy - can u confirm?
I am NOT part of AEC12OA management and do not attempt to have any influence over - this may not be believed by all here unfortunately
I have been involved with the event known as Morgan Black from inception and was part of the original crew that got it going. My USA attendance was purely as participant and not part of any plot for the future.
I am going to the next Morgan Black - tickets are purchased and am just a participant - nothing more or less.
I will go the next one after that - where ever it is.
I DO NOT want to be politically involved in the class again locally or offshore and apologise to all for any misconstrued comments earlier (from my side and readers as well)
I wish to make it abundantly clear that my allegiance lies with the boat known as in the past and future as an EC12 - whatever variations there has and will be.

If a mould knowingly comes from the USA plug as a master mould to any country off this master plug it is and will be an EC12. Where is the need to "certify" it as such - it came from the accepted master plug so should be accepted at face value with the sale docket proving heritage.

Flopping off another boat will set the whole class back 20+ years and denigrate the whole idea of standardisation.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 03:08 AM
Bob
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The recent post have no value nor interest to those attempting to rebuild the class in NSW and ACT.

If anyone has strong objection to post content, have the common courtesy and fortitude to contact the post originator via the Forum Private Message facility. There's no points for grandstanding in public.

Failure to comply will result in this forum being LOCKED - it's your choice!

To those individuals who have provided helpful suggestions to aid our rebuilding process, I thank you once again and ask that you ignore those attempting to bring this thread into disrepute.

Bob.

PS.

Gents,

My apology I have neglected to add, I am not aware of any individual that has an intention to "flop" an EC12 from any origin. There simple is no reason as we have good serviceable moulds as indicated in previous posts. To reiterate; these include the original "Lakesedge" mould and the AEC12OA new USA mould.

Mr. Ian Hull-Brown, should you have further concerns, please do not hesitate in contacting me via the forum Personal Message facility.

Regards,

Bob
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ec12nz View Post
What "authority" have I been given? None

Mr WABOATS you have criticised me and complimented me on this forum and I cannot fathom how or why you have taken to having a dig at me for what ever reason.


Flopping off another boat will set the whole class back 20+ years and denigrate the whole idea of standardisation.


EC12NZ

Who is you coz you ain't signed off anything

That aside What happened in 1986 when International Standards were attempted ...

Who says that Australia must now Follow what you or others thrust upon them..

Perhaps I should post some of IE Mob OA ideals & attitude to the EC12 Owners in Australia...

You might then understand the depth of mistrust in their Vision.... But being a part of the IE12 Mob OA, no doubt you are already a party to this information, especially as teh tirade is on behalf of the OA & supposedly supported by teh membership... If Only...

The current Hull Shape propsed is from an Evolution of a Moulding Process & from all accounts developed from a 3rd or 4th Generation Flop of an existing Hull..

THe History is there for you to Explain if you can...

Didn't this exact process set the class back?


But MORE IMPORTANTLY

Aren't we trying to get BACK to the Original Hull Shape... Lets say 40 years back...


John
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainBit View Post
there is all the will in the world to help AUS resolve their challenges and assist with the controlled and friendly expansion of the class. Best wishes to everyone here.[/COLOR]

Ian

If only..

EC12NZ cast a very broad net & is supposedly a member of an Aust Association...

Why if based O/Seas.. Trying to influence Australian Outcomes..

How many others from O/Seas, only can only guess.. Is any vote on the IE12 Mob OA valid when considering teh Conflict of Interest involved...

That aside, perhaps some of the writings from the IE12 MOB OA.. Speaks on behalf of & with the authority of the membership..
Everything that you say may well be correct, but two things positive will come out of all this I can assure you.


1) New boats will once again start to be produced in this country and the boat will be built to a standard, finally. You must agree that this is the very lifeblood of a class that wishes itself to be referred to as "strict one design".


2) We get rid of all the deadwood morons that have sought to undermine this process. They shall not be missed as they only own the "old boat" which is a bastardization in the majority of cases anyway. The total number of this deadwood would only amount to a handful, at best 6 or so, so no real loss. They are the enemy anyway you look at it and all they have ever done is to collude with D****e to thwart the inevitable which is what the vast majority of owners have wished for. We the owners (majority) have won. They lose. That is the way of these things and as you are possibly aware, when it comes to achieving results I never let sentimentality get in the way. They attempted to kill my baby and for that I will never forgive them. That is the extent of the resentment and contempt that I hold for those visionless morons!

Anyway you look at it, any new outcome that represents a departure from what has gone before has got to be positive. What the EC12 class has descended to over the years was entirely lamentable and destructive. I just got through explaining this to the poor guy who the old system of ARYA required to be installed as an NCC. This position will also be rendered redundant once power is conferred to the OA. I could rant on all day about this stuff and probably bore you to death so let us just say peace to us all and let the chips fall where they may.



This is all from the Horse's mouth & very offensive to Australia EC12 Owners & Skippers..

Would you trust this person to find common ground or be trusted with anything...


Well the chips fell down & the IE12 Mob didn't get their way.. They Lost & from there they opposed & destroyed everything..

But that's OK.. They are only an EC12 afterall..


Never an EC12... just look at thier own website if you don't believe me..


John
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 07:41 PM
Bob
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Seasons Greeting to all our views and contributors.

Regrettable, we have taken the decision to end this thread. On behalf of our group, I am proud of our achievements. We were the only people willing to promote the Australian EC12 Class in an unbiased manner via this thread for the benefit of all EC12 owners throughout Australia. I believe we did it well and my thanks go out to all concerned.

We were extremely fortunate to have gained a number of friends from across the world, all of whom were only too willing to help with our predicament, and for that we are extremely grateful. Your contributions will not be forgotten.

The loss of Class National Recognition has had serious impact for the future of the class and taken a heavy toll on many owners. Had we been able to establish a working committee with a twelve month extension from the ARYA to work on and resolve the issues facing the Class, I have no doubt there would have been a successful outcome.

However, the decision has been made and we must look to the future and build a better and stronger base at State and Territory level. Is is also important to note, we never stopped working on an amicable solution behind the scenes with likeminded members of the OA unfortunately, the OA President has found it necessary to publish his report vide the OA website (dated 16 December 2012) in which he has openly demonstrated his contempt and portioned malice on all non OA members: http://www.ec12.org.au/ As consequence, these discussions have now ended, much to the disappointment of all involved.

Due to the success of this Thread, we will be opening a new thread early 2013 to continue our efforts to promote the Class as a State based unit. The thread will also incorporate and encourage discussion associated with various classes with an emphasis on the RC 12 Metre class in general.

We look forward to your participation in 2013.

From Australia; We wish all a very Merry Christmas, a Happy and great New Year; keep well and be safe.

Best Regards,

Bob.
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Old Mar 25, 2013, 07:56 PM
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EC12OA De-Registration Agenda for current OZ EC12's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking50 View Post
G’day John,

A return to our former thread would be appreciated. The damage inflicted on the EC12 class and specific individuals has been substantial, needless to say the consequences will significant.
Glad to see this EC12 specific Forum is re-opened..


With all the Political Machinations going on & the Struggle for Control of the EC12 within Australia, most people believe it is a storm in a Tea Cup & Nothing to worry about.. How wrong they are....


See attached... the REASON for the latest stirring of emotions...

Note the Date 3rd March 2013

It seems like what I have said about De-Registration of Boats is absolutely ON THE MONEY...


The AEC12OA want to Take Full control & start a Dictatorship to decide who can & can't have a Registered EC12 within Australia.

They fully intend to demand membership & acceptance of THEIR views otherwise your boat Registration is no longer valid.. They will de-register a Boat & cancel a membership of anybody that questions them..

Quote:

At the end of that grace period the owner will be obliged to join the OA or the registration of their boat will lapse

It is interesting that the OA & other supports only go silent when they have been found out..

I asked David B for his position on this & a dual register & am still waiting... It's a pity that silence is preferred over Transparency..

Cheers

John
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Old Mar 26, 2013, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waboats View Post


See attached... the REASON for the latest stirring of emotions...

Note the Date 3rd March 2013
Now for the Biggest & Perhaps the most Illegal Activity Undertaken by the AEC12OA to Date...


Making Reference to the attached Document, inclusive of References to the Australian Privacy Act 1988..

Quote:

13A Interferences with privacy by organisations

General rule


(1) For the purposes of this Act, an act or practice of an organisation is an interference with the privacy of an individual if:
(a) the act or practice breaches an approved privacy code that binds the organisation in relation to personal information that relates to the individual; or
(b) both of the following apply:
(i) the act or practice breaches a National Privacy Principle in relation to personal information that relates to the individual;
(ii) the organisation is not bound by an approved privacy code in relation to the personal information; or

Schedule 3—National Privacy Principles
Note: See section 6.

1 Collection


1.1 An organisation must not collect personal information unless the information is necessary for one or more of its functions or activities.
2 Use and disclosure
2.1 An organisation must not use or disclose personal information about an individual for a purpose (the secondary purpose) other than the primary purpose of collection



I am aware that Information from NON-Members of AEC12OA are stored by the organisation Illegally.

The Information was supplied to an Individual *(the Complainer) in his functions as a National Class Coordinator for the express purposes of undertaking those duties as NCC.

He subsequently Resigned from the Position Yet took with him the information supplied to the ARYA & has used said information for the progress of his own personal agenda..

The previously attached document is evidence that the Information collected is now being used for a purpose other than for which it was supplied (to ARYA & NOT AEC12OA).

The AEC12OA has no Authority to have possession of such Information & the Individual who took responsibility for such has breached the Privacy of ALL Individuals by using it.


I would threfore like to Submit that a Complaint to the ARYA is warranted on the grounds that Information supplied to it for undertaking its' functions have been used by Individuals not authorised & used in amanner that was not it's purpose.

The Individual has used sensitive information concerning individuals & has sought to gain an advantage by using the information for which he was a custodian..

There has been no Authority gained nor obtained from the Indiviuduals concerned & as such this is a clear Breach of the Privacy Act 1988 & requires Urgent Attention..
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Old Mar 27, 2013, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking50 View Post
URGENT NOTICE


The NSWRYA State Title is now CANCELLED!

The NSWRYA has taken the decision to postpone the championship event to a date and place to be fixed.

No explanation has been received but I suspect we all know the reason.

Wonder Why..

This was published Publicly on the AEC12OA website on 17th March 2013.

I have chosen to remove names ... Remeber this is an Individual that does not even reside in the State of NSW

Addressed to the Yacht Club that had graciously provided their Venue. Protocol suggests that a compliant if warranted should have been progressed through the QRYA (a member there) or at the very least through the NSWRYA as the convening authority...

I was sickened by the stance, missing several Key Points about the IE12... I would make the following points


  • The IE12 is not recognised as an International, National or State class.
  • It does not have approved class rules in any of the States, Nationally nor Internationally.
  • It is not eligible for registration under the ARYA authority & therefore cannot hold a valid certificate recognised in Australia..

As I have stated previously the IE12 boats competing at the recent Morgan Black Regatta were in contravention of the NoR as they did not hold a valid certificate & did not comply with the EC12 Rules stipulated in the NOR. Similarly they cannot compete until such time as they complete the necessary processes to recognise the boat. And only then can they compete in those Jurisdictions that recognise & support the IE12 Class Boats..They can however compete as a Club Class/Boat should they wish..

I believe that all potential customers of this Boat should be made fully aware that the Hulls are not Recognised within Australia at present & have no status as an International or National Class.. They therefore cannot hold a Valid Certificate recognised by the ARYA (The Principle Recognised Radio Sailing Organisation within Australia).

In due course & proper process this may change...

For what it's worth here is the complaint...


Quote:

From ***************

.........

email: *****@*************


17th March 2013


***********

Dear Mr. *******,


I refer you to your club’s current notice of race (NOR advertised on the NSW Radio Yachting Association’s website)), for the upcoming NSW EC12 radio sailing class regatta due to be held at your club’s venue this coming 6th April 2013.


I wish to lodge a formal complaint as a private person and EC12 boat owner, in regard to the conditional nature of the qualifying criteria in the NOR that dictates who and what boats qualify for entry. It would seem that the qualifying conditions referred to in your NOR do not allow for my new boat to be accepted as an entry.


My understanding is that the event was for all EC12 boats and their owners but under the circumstances it appears that I and my new boat are precluded from entering the event. I am the owner of two EC12’s and recently I purchased a new hull from the Australian EC12 Owners Association (AEC12OA) which is an identical copy of the EC12 boats that are currently manufactured and raced in both New Zealand and the USA.

It is true that I have a connection with the AEC12OA organization but would think that this has absolutely nothing to do with whether my boat can be entered in this event or not and my concern as far as this letter is concerned is offered only in my private capacity. You are possibly to be forgiven for this oversight as you may not be aware of the circumstances that the class now finds itself confronted with due to recent events.

As you may be possibly aware, recently the ARYA delisted this class as a “national class” and as such many owners regard that development as an event that has rendered null and void all previous controls and rule bases that the ARYA held and presided over and as such, many current owners believe that the gravitation toward the use of the current EC12 standard hull as used by the USA to be totally proper and in line with the future development of the class here in Australia.


Currently there have been approximately 8 of the new boats built and registered by the AEC12OA and two of these boats reside within NSW with more orders likely to follow from that state in the near future. These current NSW boat owners would have been entrants for your event but sadly under the present criteria it is certain that they will be unlikely starters as well. Further many of the older existing EC12 plus all of the newer boats do not hold a registration certificate as the old registry held and operated previously by the ARYA has been closed and many skippers, certainly here in QLD for instance, cannot rely on previous invalid registration certificates.


The current machinations within NSW by a small group who have attempted to invoke the local state association coverage has no meaning or validity for boat owners further afield and unfortunately this move on their part has simply had the effect of driving a wedge deeper into the heart of the class in my opinion. Nevertheless the implications for being able to present a current valid registration certificate are dubious to say the least and this is also a work in progress that our nationally covering owners association is working to resolve as we speak by offering universal new and replacement certificates of registration for all previously registered boats and all new boats produced by the AEC12OA and not on a local state basis which does nothing much to advance the cause of the longer term interests of the class.


I find this situation in respect of the NOR to be highly discriminatory as I am demonstrably in possession of a boat that is recognized worldwide as an EC12 but sadly I cannot enter an EC12 event in my own country without the need to rebuild my new boat to conform with an outdated and no longer enforced rule base that previously used to govern the class within this country.


One wonders what your club’s disposition would be if an overseas competitor from NZ or USA wished to enter this event. Would it be likely that they would be discouraged and turned away also? They use the same hull as I do and also sail with 4 rigs!


I certainly don’t wish to involve you or your club in a political stoush under any circumstances but by the same token strenuously do not wish to see your club become an innocent participant in a very unhealthy precedent setting role, simply because the club responded favorably to a request to hold and run an event for the EC12 class!


I intend to send a copy of this letter to NSWRYA, QRYA and ARYA in order to publicly air this complaint in the hope that the NOR can be altered in order to allow all competitors owning an EC12 to enter if they so wish. The letter will also be widely publicized within the membership of the AEC12OA and also displayed on the AEC12OA website in due course and a copy to the NSW Central Coast club secretary.


Just while we are on the subject of precedent setting, recently one of your fellow NSW sister clubs on the Central Coast, conducted a very successful EC12 regatta at Terrigal where the entry list consisted of both forms of the yacht. Interestingly one of the older model boats won the scratch part of the event and one of the newer boats won the handicap section. That happened to be the way that event was traditionally organized when it had previously been a 10 rater event. I simply mention this fact as an example of what has been previously done and demonstrates that there is absolutely no advantage demonstrated by one boat over another. The recent Morgan Black regatta held here in QLD recently even proved that by being won by a 30 plus year old boat!


So in conclusion may I look forward to your re-examination of the current NOR provisions and have you possibly consider the necessary changes required in order to allow all EC12’s to sail and not just one exclusive part of the fleet simply based on date of manufacture. I look forward to your earliest response.


Kind regards

*******************

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