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Old Dec 04, 2012, 02:31 PM
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I have been following this thread with mild interest/amusement and have refrained from making comment as the "issues" raised are relevant to Australia only and no doubt will at some point in time be resolved by the "locals".

However in "waboats" last post there was an error when reference is made to NZ boats, which I feel needs correcting, I quote.

" USA waterline length.....NZ/IE12 minimum weight......"

An inference could be taken from this that NZ EC12's are weight measured when being checked for compliance with Class Rules.

THIS IS NOT CORRECT....weight is not a factor

A cornerstone of compliance with NZ EC12 Class Rules is exactly the same as USA...waterline length.

The ONLY reference to weight in these rules is that the bare hull ONLY at fabrication shall not weigh less than 1kg. It is up to the NZ approved boat builder to ensure and achieve this, todate this has not been a problem.

Regards & compliments of the season to all

ROD LIDDY
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Old Dec 04, 2012, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROD LIDDY View Post
I have been following this thread with mild interest/amusement and have refrained from making comment as the "issues" raised are relevant to Australia only and no doubt will at some point in time be resolved by the "locals".

However in "waboats" last post there was an error when reference is made to NZ boats, which I feel needs correcting, I quote.

" USA waterline length.....NZ/IE12 minimum weight......"

An inference could be taken from this that NZ EC12's are weight measured when being checked for compliance with Class Rules.

THIS IS NOT CORRECT....weight is not a factor

A cornerstone of compliance with NZ EC12 Class Rules is exactly the same as USA...waterline length.

The ONLY reference to weight in these rules is that the bare hull ONLY at fabrication shall not weigh less than 1kg. It is up to the NZ approved boat builder to ensure and achieve this, todate this has not been a problem.

Regards & compliments of the season to all

ROD LIDDY
Rod

My apologies


NZL
4.2.6 The maximum load waterline length (LWL) shall be 1092mm. The minimum LWL shall be 1066 mm. Reference lines of length 20mm and width 2mm, whose edges mark the limits of the maximum and minimum LWL of a colour which contrasts with the colour of the hull, shall be placed across the centre line of the hull 13mm apart at each end in accordance with Fig 1. The hull fully rigged with the A rig and at rest in fresh water, shall float between the reference lines.

I was mistaken & unfortunately was referring back to a communication, (International Status & the EC12) between an OA Rep from IE12 & NZL. Now since removed from another forum.

Weight was the only appropriate measurement that could be relied upon absolutely.

What is FRESH WATER..

Each region of Australia has a variety of Salt Content @ the Lakeside & chemical additives for Tap Water.

Each has an effect on displacement.

How is the Measurement done in NZL?



So when we have Australia dealing with an Overall Weight as a means of equalization as opposed to LWL how would it be possible to undertake any International Competition.



Just have to take the Current Proposed Morgan Black Event as a simple example.

EC12 Class Rules (Australian Variety) which would mean that the IE12 Hulls cannot compete as they do not measure. Strictly speaking nor do the USA or NZL Hulls that are outside these rules.

Yes Common Sense will prevail & the event will proceed, but you cannot simply ignore the differences in the rules for the EC12 Class worldwide simply by a suggestion that the Original Hull was sighted & it appears to be the closest...

From Potted History the CURRENT HULL SHAPE has evolved over time.. IT IS NOT a copy of the Original Plug..


All it is is a grasp of power by certain Individuals who then set in place rules to remove any challenge to their authority.

That simply will not happen in Australia.. The current attempts have resulted in recognition as a National Class being removed..

I hope you agree this is not a good thing to occur, but necessary to cease the constant barrage of abuse & complaints from the OA as they attempt to rest power from the long established & accepted EC12 fraternity.

From what I have seen of the early US moulds dating back to 70's they are far closer to the Aust Beam measurements than currently applicable to the IE12 Mouldings. From what I am lead to believe perhaps a spare plug of an original..

Not withstanding the most important aspect of any Mould is How Weight is stored below the waterline...

Not One measurement showing Overall Height, Width of Keel nor Form/Profiles of the Keel.

A simple area to engage some shenanigans
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 12:41 AM
Bob
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Quote:
I have been following this thread with mild interest/amusement and have refrained from making comment as the "issues" raised are relevant to Australia only and no doubt will at some point in time be resolved by the "locals".

G'day Rod,

Glad we have been able to provide a little mild interest and amusement for you however, I can assure you there aren't too many Australian EC12 owners amused by the circumstances surrounding the loss of National Status. A situation that didn't need to occur.

Thanks for the correction, as John has reported, previous comments made by the OA indicated they would move for an amendment to adopt the weight rule in place of waterline measurement but hey, that's old news now and has no bearing on our current plight..

At least you have had the decency not to make inaccurate and insulting remarks against our National authority as your fellow countryman did; like it or not, the ARYA is the recognised authority in this country and it is our obligation to work with them for the benefit of the class. This includes the AEC12OA which is a QRYA based club.

I am sure the NZ EC12 owners faced similar problems in past years when the new USA mould was introduced. If you would care to elaborate and share your experiences during that process, it would be of benefit. No pressure!

Thank you for your interest and correcting our mistake. You are welcome to these discussions and if you wish, provide us with the benefit of your experience.

Regards,

Bob.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 04:20 AM
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Bob

I'm not too sure how concerned any NZL or OA fraternity really care what they have done to the EC12.

It's about using what they think is the right Hull... And grabbing the power to Monopolise the class & manufacture.. More $$$'s for the mates..

Sad part they aren't even close on the Original Plug.. To use the excuse that it looks close (I'll quote exactly later) dumbfounds me.
"The original hull form and tank test model is actually closest to the newest mold form. I say this having actually sat and looked at the original tank test model at St Petersburgh Yacht Club in Florida where it resides still"
How is it possible to look at a hull shape & determine that it is 5mm or 6mm different at any one station, without actually doing a proper measurement? I suppose it suits a purpose & we all must agree or else....

Realistically only a proper Tank Testing would & could tell the difference in performance. Laser scanning the profiles & you get an exact duplicate. Ooops modern technology & its' harmless.


From Australian History...
These three Australian manufactured boats were use to start the New Zealand EC12 fleet. Later NZ manufacturers including Ian Hogg (1988),Tainui (1989) and Dave Norris (1995) among others to swell the numbers till about 2004 circa when they had about 117 boats registered nationally, a really good effort on their part
I wonder how many of these boats are still active now there is a new regime in control.. Not all smelling of roses from what I hear.. Maybe a guide as to what confronts Australia if they don't find a way to resolve the IE12 demands for total control.




So the Next Question I would ask..
What are the THREE things that are NOT NEGOTIABLE when it comes to intergrating the IE12 into the Australian EC12 Class and why..
I will guarantee the AEC12OA wont have the Guts to answer that one... Even if asked by the ARYA Executive...


Don't forget I would ask the same question of each faction.. Then we have a starting point...

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Old Dec 05, 2012, 02:28 PM
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Good Morning (NZ time) to all again

- An interesting comment regarding LWL measurement and "what is fresh water". I guess that there can be many different interpretations of this and short of ALL boats turning up at one point and all being checked in the same float tank there would not be a simple answer to this. But I would suggest that the differences as a result of location if any could not or would not be measureable.

- In 2006 the executive of the NZEC12OA after due consideration and discussion purchased, on behalf of the class in NZ, from the USA class a mould which was and still is the ONLY class recognised new build mould in the USA. The decision to purchase this mould was based on two factors
(a) the mould which had been in use in NZ was virtually at the end of it's viable life and would have needed to have been replaced/rebuilt
(b) It was felt that in an attempt to standardize " A One Design Class" that the first step in this direction should be the introduction to NZ of this mould.
This was done and at the same time ALL existing and registered EC12's in NZ were grandfathered for life. The relevant Class Rule was amended with regards to beam measurements to now show before and after 2006 measurements the remaining rules being unchanged.

This was a seamless transition and has continued to be so today.

- In NZ we now have ( and have had since 1996) one approved boat builder who manufactures all EC12 hulls/decks from the NZEC12OA owned mould, this builder since 1996 being Davie Norris of Davie Norris Boatbuilders Ltd. The first hull manufactured by Davie as the approved boat builder was in fact number 63 owned to this day by Ian Hull-Brown and is a VERY competitive boat.

- Todate there are 151 EC12's registered in NZ. It is however fair to say that a good number of these are "parked up" some just temporarily, for various reasons as happens with all classes. But at all EC12 events there is always a good representation of "old" and "new" hull shape with the resultant even spread of results between them. At the end of the day it all comes down to the "nut on the wheel" doing the driving.

Regards

ROD LIDDY
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 11:25 PM
Bob
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Thanks Rod,

You have made a number of very positive points that I'm sure will clarify and assist our position.

I see little reason why our class in Australia can not implement a similar process. (If all parties are willing!)

Regards,

Bob.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROD LIDDY View Post
A cornerstone of compliance with NZ EC12 Class Rules is exactly the same as USA...waterline length.

The ONLY reference to weight in these rules is that the bare hull ONLY at fabrication shall not weigh less than 1kg. It is up to the NZ approved boat builder to ensure and achieve this, todate this has not been a problem.

Rod

It is good to know your builder has some experience in building teh Hulls to Spec.

From all accounts Australia is having problems coming down to the weight proposed in their rules & have even considered a Hull without a protective resin Gel Coat..

Maybe some tips need to be shared amongst the builders..





Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking50 View Post

I see little reason why our class in Australia can not implement a similar process. (If all parties are willing!)
Bob

There is the whole thing that confronts Australia.. The IE12 faction simply aren't prepared to compromise & want that ultimate control.

Once they get this then they will simply alter their rules as they see fit (coz they can) & then ban out the older boats after 5 years..

Horses Mouth Stuff & a part of the Manifesto.


It would be good to know how many EC12 (New Hull Shgape) are used in NZL as compared to Older Styles...

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Old Dec 06, 2012, 03:49 AM
Bob
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John,

One would have thought the OA executive would reconsider, use a little common sense and work with Collin D. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see it would have been in their interest to accept the ARYA as the Australian authority however, that was not the case and as the AEC12OA is an affiliated club with QRYA that supports a Class known as an IE12, they have no bearing on the future of the EC12 Class in Australia.

The immediate priority facing Colin, is the road to recovery and rebuild of the Class. There has been enough time and effort wasted. As significant numbers of Owners commit their supporting for Colin and assist with the future process as a State recognised Class, the hard work begins.

No doubt, emphasis will be placed on measure that will protect the stability and future growth of the class by ensuring the current circumstances surrounding loss of National Recognition, are never repeated.

All the best,

Bob.
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 04:16 AM
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Bob

I was wondering if there was any News from the Sail Day they organised in NSW over the weekend?

Combined IE12 & EC12 ???

From what I heard there was one very notable inclusion.. Sailing an Older EC12 & Not the New You Beaut, IE12...

The very same Boat that was For Sale a few months back for near $3000....

Maybe the production has hit a BIG SN@FU....

THey need to Grandfather Older Boats in because it woudl take many many years to gather a Viable Fleet.. with the current rate of output.
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 04:54 AM
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John

Anyone who asks $3000 for a second hand EC12 is whistling in the wind.

I bought back my 1983 Lakesedge EC12 in almost original condition nearly 2 years ago for $1200.00 which included 3 suits of sails, 2 channel 29meg radio, RMG 380 winch, a u-beaut stand and sail box and as far as I can assertain this is about the going proce for a 2nd hand EC12 from the that era.

As a matter of interest I have come accross one of my original pricelists from the mid 80s and it makes interesting reading. A set of mouldings comprising hull, deck, cover and rudder was listed at $85.00, a completed yacht ready to sail but without radio or winch was $340.

Even today I could probably build up a new ready to sail EC12 from the Lakesedge mould for less than $2000 incuding radio and RMG winch. Anyone wanting an EC12 can contact me on kevin@hobbywerx.com.au.

I have noticed some discussion about the differences in the shape of the various hulls.

The Lakesedge mould was made from a hull brought to Australia by Max Lewis and is identical to the Treasure Tooling mould which was the standard in USA at the time and the closest to the original. The other current approved moulds have been flopped from Lakesedge boats. I believe the Mini Mariner mould which I think was flopped off Dumas hull had a slightly different keel shape. This mould is apparently no longer available.

I haven't seen one of the "new" hulls in the flesh so I can't comment on the differences beteen it and my Lakesedge hulls.

I would also be against the class banning hulls from the older moulds as I believe that they represent the history of the class and as there is apparently little difference in performance between the hulls why cut out those who have been more or less pioneers in the class.

Also if there is only one recognised mould there is the danger that those controlling the mould will name their own price for the hulls and price the class out of existance.

I know that there has been some interest in replacing the EC12 with the Canterbury J or a similar boat and that this interest has been mainly fueled by the EC12 political saga. (The 11kg mass is also beginning to tell a bit on us of more mature years - although we can overcome this with a trolley.)

Let us hope that common sense prevails and we can get back to just sailing boats.

Kevin H
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 08:00 PM
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John

Anyone who asks $3000 for a second hand EC12 is whistling in the wind.

I wasn't sure where the whistling wind was coming from. In the end I think the sale was withdrawn because you don't get a say in EC12's if you are no longer an owner.

Now there was an opportunity missed..


Quote:

I have noticed some discussion about the differences in the shape of the various hulls.

The Lakesedge mould was made from a hull brought to Australia by Max Lewis and is identical to the Treasure Tooling mould which was the standard in USA at the time and the closest to the original.

History is always a good foundation on which to build for the futrure..


Quote:

I would also be against the class banning hulls from the older moulds as I believe that they represent the history of the class and as there is apparently little difference in performance between the hulls why cut out those who have been more or less pioneers in the class.

Also if there is only one recognised mould there is the danger that those controlling the mould will name their own price for the hulls and price the class out of existance.

That is where the Rule makers must overcome any desire to allow for One Group to Monopolise every aspect of the Class.

I'm not a great Fan of the ARYA systems but in this case I believe they have a Duty to ensure ALL Class rules are Standardised as close as possible to include every boat within that class..

Once an EC12 Always an EC12..

This needs to be RULE #1...

Hull Shapes from ALL Moulds & Era's are acceptable & recognised within the Class Rules..

This Needs to be RULE #2



I would include Aust Moulds, USA Moulds, NZL Moulds & the IE12 mould if it can be proven to be an EC12 derivative..



Quote:

I know that there has been some interest in replacing the EC12 with the Canterbury J or a similar boat and that this interest has been mainly fueled by the EC12 political saga. (The 11kg mass is also beginning to tell a bit on us of more mature years - although we can overcome this with a trolley.)

Let us hope that common sense prevails and we can get back to just sailing boats.

Kevin H


Have to say the Canterbury J has some interest.. Bob Wing has brought his 2 from NZL & has a current shape EC12 over there ready to come to OZ (if anybody is interested).

There are also 2 unbuilt CJ's that could see a small fleet here..


Cheers

John




PM with details if interested & I will forward to BOB...
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 05:27 PM
Bob
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Quote:
I was wondering if there was any News from the Sail Day they organised in NSW over the weekend?
John,

Apart from what Henry has supplied, there isn't a great deal of information available. I've also checked the NSWRYA website but nothing there.

There are too many variables to evaluate the differences between both EC12 and the IE12 without a proper test being conducted and stated previously, the skipper factor is the key.

Quote:
Even today I could probably build up a new ready to sail EC12 from the Lakesedge mould for less than $2000 incuding radio and RMG winch. Anyone wanting an EC12 can contact me on kevin@hobbywerx.com.au.
Kevin,

Will you be providing individual components for sale (Hull, Deck, Lead, Rudder etc.) or just a complete boat?



To all concerned - The ARYA decision to withdraw National Recognition of the EC12 Class is Final. Many had hoped for a last minute reprieve but sadly, this will not happen. Thanks Colin for your effort.

As of 01 January 2013 - State based EC12 Class ONLY!
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Old Dec 08, 2012, 04:43 AM
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Bob
Quote:
Kevin,

Will you be providing individual components for sale (Hull, Deck, Lead, Rudder etc.) or just a complete boat?
When I get back in the swing of things after Xmas I will supply anything from a completed yacht to individual mouldings or even a stainless steel screw.

When I first started making EC12s back in the 80s there was very little in the way of model yacht fittings available at the time so I had to custom make virtually everything including turnbuckles, chainplates etc for the yachts. I even had my own streamlined mast section extruded. (Same section as now advertised in Radio Waves.)

I intend to get back into the manufacture of some fittings again although the supply position is a lot better now than it was back in the 80s. I have full machining facilities for manufacture of 1 off items as well as composite manufacture facilities. (It was fun fitting it all into a home workshop after having it spread round a 375sq metre factory building.)

In case anyone is interested I also have a mould for a 48" Ranger J which is a scale hull with a 3' deeper keel (not to be confused with the Canterbury J) , a 36" yacht which I am developing for a hobby shop, an RG65 and a Footy. I will also be prepared to make hulls or build up yachts for others if required.

Now that I am fully retired I think I would die of boredom if I didn't have something to do that I liked doing.

Regards
Kevin
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Old Dec 08, 2012, 04:55 AM
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John
Quote:
Have to say the Canterbury J has some interest.. Bob Wing has brought his 2 from NZL & has a current shape EC12 over there ready to come to OZ (if anybody is interested).
I have been in touch with NZ regarding getting a mould and making the Canterbury Js in Australia but they are reluctant to supply a mould to us.

The main problem in getting hulls from NZ is the cost of transport as the transport cost quoted to us was well in excess of the actual cost of the hull. Getting multiple hulls in one shipment to reduce transport costs per hull was also a problem as it dosn't take too many hulls to exceed the $1000 limit and incurring sales tax and duty.

Maybe Bob Wing can twist an arm or two.

Kevin
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Old Dec 08, 2012, 05:39 AM
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Kevin

I will ask Bob what he had to do to bring the 2 Full Working Boats to OZ.. I know he got several quotes & one was way over the odds..

I know the sails were almost Cactus & he has been making new MM Sails out of the same material..

Customs are taking a close look at packages this time of year & the GST/Customs limits of $1000 makes it hard.. I do most of my purchases July to November to avoid the prying eyes.

I'll ask Bob what he knows about CJ Moulds & who or what it takes to get approval to make hulls O/Seas. I suspect they might think a Hull is cheaper coming from OZ than locally & want to protect Local Builders. Not unlike the EC12 rules. Good & Bad outcomes.

If you entered into a "NO" NZL or Asia export agreement maybe they might look at it a bit different..


Cheers

John
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