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Old May 14, 2012, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by 2dogrc View Post
You can not mail defective batteries anywhere! This is a federal regulation. It is in IATA regulations,USPS regulations, UPS regulations and Fed Ex regulations.

Mark
USPS says you can not mail back damaged or recalled batteries. You could probably argue that a "defective" lipo cell is not "damaged", well unless you crash it.
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Old May 14, 2012, 05:12 PM
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The guidelines state:
Quote:
Damaged or recalled batteries are prohibited from mailing unless approved by the manager, Product Classification.
Worst case scenario take the unsealed very well packed box into the post office with a copy of the rules, explain to them the scenario and that the pack is not damaged but defective and show them that it is well packed and conforming to all normal guidelines and see if they will let you ship it. USPS is all about rules, rules and more rules. In my experience nothing makes them happier then you demonstrating that you are doing everything you can to know and ad-hear to the rules.
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Old May 14, 2012, 05:41 PM
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I think this thread is about educating the public on new lithium procedures and I applaud the original poster for putting this up. I am not a lawyer so I will not comment on the last post.

Be sensible and think about why these regulations are in effect.

Mark
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Old May 15, 2012, 04:27 PM
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Some of us have argured for years that a vendors requiring us to ship a know defective LiPoly back to them for credit / replacemnet was completely uncalled for.

I guess some vendors do not trust their customers to destroy any defective LiPolys which they replace and I admit that I have read post here on RC Groups where someone had a LiPoly replaced by a vendor and they continued to use the old "defective" one.

One vendor reqwuired photo proff that the defective one was destroyed. Sure thing boss as most have more than a few look LiPolys and besides some of us can wear out a good LiPoly in a matter of months.

Charles
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Old May 15, 2012, 04:50 PM
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amherst,nova scotia,canada
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I imagine the retailer might have had to hand a defective lipo back to the battery manufacturer or their distributor to either get credit at his end or a replacement for us so far.

Otherwise human nature being what it is things may have spun out of control.

I doubt there will be much of a change in the current policy even though we cannot use the mails to return a battery. That is unless competion for lithium polymer business gets really intense.

We may be also soon be approaching that senario.It is great for the consumer initially. Unfortunatly it leaves few surviving manufactures in it's wake ultimatly.

Then the market eventually becomes stable and prices more under control but constantly rising by the manufacturers. I seriously doubt that China will be exempt from this somewhat normal course in business.
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Old May 15, 2012, 07:03 PM
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Just be glad you can return it at all. Many LHS will not take them back period or there are many restrictions because often they can not get credit and that's a big loss to swallow on some packs.
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Old May 15, 2012, 08:43 PM
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Actually, no it will not be a problem. The mail between here and China works perfectly well. The bulk of our online suppliers are in China anyway.

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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Damn. That is certainly going to be a problem for us here in Canada.
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Old May 15, 2012, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogrc View Post
I think this thread is about educating the public on new lithium procedures and I applaud the original poster for putting this up. I am not a lawyer so I will not comment on the last post.

Be sensible and think about why these regulations are in effect.

Mark
If damaged or defective (aren't these more likely to be risky?), aren't they "more" dangerous?

So, anybody had an HK battery claim lately, and if so, did HK demand the battery be shipped back?
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Old May 16, 2012, 03:30 AM
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This sucks, glad I'm moving back to the States soon. Got this in my .mil email today

"Effective May 16, 2012 lithium batteries cannot be sent as mail matter for transport on commercial passenger aircraft to or from international locations, including APOs, FPOs and DPOs. This USPS prohibition includes lithium batteries mailed separately, along with devices, or installed in electronic equipment. Customers may mail electronic devices as long as the lithium batteries are removed."

Along with a handy little chart that shows us Military folks overseas are kinda screwed because most places won't ship to APO anyway, and the ones that do only use USPS
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Old May 16, 2012, 07:46 AM
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My real concern was and still is a general world wide general passenger air carrier ban at some point. It would only take one major incident to do this in my opinion. Really I do not want to see that happen but it would be unreasonable to discount the possibility totally. If eventually they have to move lipos by pure air freighters this may slow things down or increase costs or both..

My hong kong suppliers lipos have been coming out of Singapore reciently.. It has looked like no air shipments for lipo out of hong kong to north america was already in effect by hong kong post. Or more likely restricted to devices of less capacity than I buy.

Nobody in their right mind wants to see an air disaster occur as a result of the batteries we use. The risk is there in my mind as well. For example if a company of ours had large quantities of lipos in stock. They would not be stored in a warehouse with many other products.

Instead I would insist they be kept in a situation that was far more isolated and the damage from any potential incident contained. Every once in awhile we get comments from members indicating they are safe devices. The reality is there is a small but real ongoing risk with them unfortunatly. That should never be totally discounted just because nothing has happend to you so far.

The batteries should instead be viewed as small potential incendary devices that might go off at any time. One occurance in our individual care can be one time too many. Already there is little doubt that the resultant property damage from these devices is in the millions of dollars.

Of course it was never going to happen to those that have suffered losses as well either. They unfortunatly enabled the situations by thinking them safer than they were. Not trying to kick a dead horse here either. From time to time we do need reminders of the potential of these batteries.

I added quite a bit to this post after subsequent posts where tabled.I felt it was better to do so than not.
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Old May 16, 2012, 08:12 AM
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Barry,
I agree with you! We see an possible situation around January where the larger battery packs, 3300-5000 multiple cell packs will be too costly to ship to us from China. The proposed laws would require no more then 2 in a box...thats alot of boxes!

Mark
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Old May 16, 2012, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogrc View Post
I think this thread is about educating the public on new lithium procedures and I applaud the original poster for putting this up. I am not a lawyer so I will not comment on the last post.

Be sensible and think about why these regulations are in effect.

Mark
Exactly. Think about being a pilot in flight and the cargo fire warning blinking red with the loud horn accompanying it. Will the fire go out before you land?

Think about this before shipping a LiPo at all. I know most people on this forum are responsible adults. Unfortunately some are not.

Let's Keep common sense in the picture and understand that these regulations are not in place to make your life difficult.

Alex
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Old May 16, 2012, 09:28 AM
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We got an updated message today that said this will only be in effect until early 2013 when some new law gets passed. Supposedly most aircraft have been fitted with whatever fire safety mechanisms that are required, just not the USPS fleet. Still gonna be a long summer for deployed folks that have a battery take a dump on them in the desert.
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Old May 16, 2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyPonyRocks View Post
We got an updated message today that said this will only be in effect until early 2013 when some new law gets passed. Supposedly most aircraft have been fitted with whatever fire safety mechanisms that are required, just not the USPS fleet. Still gonna be a long summer for deployed folks that have a battery take a dump on them in the desert.
Only catch is there's not promise that new law won't be worse. Seems like shipping extremely large quantities via sea would be more risky then air shipments. Wonder what/if any restrictions will be coming for sea/ground transportation.
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Old May 17, 2012, 12:21 AM
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Geez.Some ppl just dont get it.The USPS does not use a "fleet".While they may ship stuff on dedicated aircraft if the volume is high enough much of what they ship internationally is done on passenger aircraft as excess cargo.With PPL ONBOARD .
This policy is nothing new.It has actually been in effect for quite some time.
I think its just the fact that have finally become aware how widespread illegal shipping has been over the past years.Will this stop it from happening.NO.

It wont stop until it costs a few ppl a boatloads of money to keep thier butts out of jail and the word gets around that there are actually consequences to ignoring the law and putting innocent ppl at risk.
I really dont actually see that happening either.
We are too busy looking for terrorists to waste time dealing with shipping violations.

Seems that with this situation there is a cavalier attitude towards the potential danger.Yes they can be shipped by FedEx or UPS but the requirement there is that the package be clearly labeled that it contains lithium-ion cells.The idea is that someone in the sorting chain can see it and be sure it doesnt get packed in the center crate and put into an aircraft hold.
How many packages have you received that were clearly marked?
It doesnt take a genius to figure out the potential for a catastrophe.
Just because you pay for ground shipping doesnt mean it will actually get shipped by ground.Alot of ground stuff goes by air for logistical reasons.

If your aircraft catches on fire at altitude its not like you can pul over and jump out until the fire dept shows up to put it out.In case your head is totally buried in the sand let me remind you that a lithium fire defies pretty much all conventional fire suppression techniques.If it starts at altitude with less than ground level oxygen and then you have to make an emergency descent and the oxygen partial pressure goes up...
Anyone know how a cutting torch works? Preheat something and then enrich it with oxygen.

Seems that today everyone wants it cheap and they want it tomorrow.There are no repercussions when the rules are ignored.We want instant gratification and are willing to look the other way to get it.
Just as many will say "Gee I didnt know".

Im fairly sure business and industry has lobbied long and hard to keep the voluntary regulations inplace.Any modification in the law now is likely to see them simply labeled as HazMat.Will that stop the problem? NO. It will only make alot of things cost alot more.

This is going to burn all of us.Only because so many want to claim ignorance and do it anyway.

Rant over.
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