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Old Jul 20, 2012, 07:12 PM
Airliner Builder
WAGliderGuy's Avatar
United States, WA, Seattle
Joined Feb 2010
1,969 Posts
I guess people are so lazy these days they don't want to move their mouse and finger to click back twice because it loses them 2 seconds You are just adding to the mess by creating yet another sub forum!

Ethan
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 08:53 PM
Flying Low
cbarnes0061's Avatar
United States, VA, Petersburg
Joined Mar 2012
603 Posts
Hey Earl what other builds do you have on the table you say you have build threads and I would be interested in them, what are the names of them so I can look them up.
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Old Jul 21, 2012, 01:58 AM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
12,605 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by epoxyearl View Post
Yep.I imagine that if it is approved,we'll be ready by the next building season.
It seems like every time somebody stirs the pot,a couple more get on board..

THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL POLL! this poll was introduced to keep a running tally to display when we get to 50 "yes" votes.
NOT BEING AN OFFICIAL POLL DOES NOT MEAN IT IS AN ILLEGAL ONE.

-just savin'him the bother-
When we reach 50 yes votes the OP will request the front office to start an OFFICIAL poll,which is when we all have to come back and vote again.This time for real.I'll probably become vociferious then,requesting your help.So far.it's just been loafing along,gathering a crowd.

Hopefully all the scratch builds will be under this umbrella,rather than where they are now,spread throughout each thread.....I'm following 7 builds now,each in a different area,including my own three. It takes many pages to get where I want to go.
No, it doesn;t.

If you just use the functionality that the forum software has to offer and click on the My RC Groups tag at the top left hand side of the page, all of the threads that you have posted to, or are following will appear in one page (or, if you are contributing to many threads, over a few pages). You can then see which have been updated, at a glance, and go directly to them.
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Old Jul 21, 2012, 04:54 AM
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United States, MD, Elkton
Joined Oct 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbarnes0061 View Post
Hey Earl what other builds do you have on the table you say you have build threads and I would be interested in them, what are the names of them so I can look them up.
At "aircraft fuel airplanes",in giant scale,I'm building a 1/3 scale Fairchild F-24R.(page 2)
At the builder's workshop-Enlarged Sparky175%-page 2 also

Contributing to Sig rascal coming in Nov.(converting to a twin engine)
" " loNslo's Monocoupe build
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1565829" " U2builder's Stearman build
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Last edited by epoxyearl; Jul 22, 2012 at 03:25 AM.
Old Jul 22, 2012, 03:54 AM
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United States, MD, Elkton
Joined Oct 2011
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Scallopking-reost 359.sometimes we forget that this hobby should be fun,and take ourselves 'way too seriously.....
One of the detracters said not long ago,that we'd be "adding to this mess" with a new sub forum,failing to display any hope of changing the status quo..
If it's "already a mess" what can we hurt?
I believe the 'mess' comes from the OP,or CONTRIBUTORS failing to police themselves,and allowing things to wander.
I do all my build threads as discussions,as if we were visiting in my shop,carrying on a conversation with friends.
Assuming the new forum will be a teaching tool,that won't be allowed to happen...It'll read like a book..If you come to the forum for information,it won't include any weather reports in Washington State.Or dates-just timeless ways of accomplishing a goal.
The detracters have been valuable in teaching us what needs to be done to achieve a successful forum,almost as if they're trying to help us get it right.
Neophytes? Of course we are! New blood,combined with old school has always been a useful combination in advancing almost any endeavor.
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Old Jul 22, 2012, 04:51 AM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epoxyearl View Post
Scallopking-reost 359.sometimes we forget that this hobby should be fun,and take ourselves 'way too seriously.....
One of the detracters said not long ago,that we'd be "adding to this mess" with a new sub forum,failing to display any hope of changing the status quo..
If it's "already a mess" what can we hurt?
I believe the 'mess' comes from the OP,or CONTRIBUTORS failing to police themselves,and allowing things to wander.
I do all my build threads as discussions,as if we were visiting in my shop,carrying on a conversation with friends.
Assuming the new forum will be a teaching tool,that won't be allowed to happen...It'll read like a book..If you come to the forum for information,it won't include any weather reports in Washington State.Or dates-just timeless ways of accomplishing a goal.
The detracters have been valuable in teaching us what needs to be done to achieve a successful forum,almost as if they're trying to help us get it right.
Neophytes? Of course we are! New blood,combined with old school has always been a useful combination in advancing almost any endeavor.
Well, that is certainly what I have been doing, and have informed you all along of the correct method to approach the proposal.

That's the thing though, for those of us who have been forum members for some time and have seen this pan out several times in the past, it forms a recurring series of events. In the case of labelling folks as "detracters" (sic) or making these discussions personal, or failing to accept that it isn;t always a good idea to create a new forum, that sort of attitude very often backfires. The history of this forum has shown that, time and time again.

It's particularly obvious when a new sign up to the forums makes a suggestion that we "need" a new forum, because they have not familiarised themselves with the existing forum structure (as in this case) or they have not familiarised themselves with the forum software options (as in the case of believing that one needs to view many fora to keep track of threads that one is already interested in). The "My RC Groups" function handles the latter requirement perfectly and users of that function even have the choice to not be exposed to the forum front pages at all, if that is their desire.
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Old Jul 22, 2012, 07:39 AM
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The opposition then( I hereby retract Detracters)and I apologise if anyone was offended,sorry-that was a poor choice of words on my part,and is not indicitive of the population in general- is constantly saying the "forum" is not being operated within guidelines.
Alas- this is not a forum.....This is a DISCUSSION,a conversation, on the pros and cons OF a forum.In a discussion,you can throw in ideas from any angle,in order to arrive at a proposal that fills the OP's requirements...
I don't think we intend to be defeated before we fight the good fight,however.The rules put forth by the administration are clear and concise.They are duty bound to ignore us until a formal proposal is presented.
We need to present 50 yes votes to include with a proposal,Then the front office will begin a poll.(that's the OFFICIAL one !)There is where it gets a little easier,because we need only a 75% approval rating at that point...They will run the poll for a given amount of time(sort of like bidding at an auction)and we can vote at will,to stay at the required level.
However-if the admins think it's a great idea,they can just say-Go for it !Give it a try,and let's see what happens with it.
I think we've been averaging that,(75%) in the "unofficial",but not illegal poll.
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Last edited by epoxyearl; Jul 22, 2012 at 07:41 AM. Reason: add apology
Old Jul 22, 2012, 08:53 AM
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u2builder's Avatar
USA, NH, Alstead
Joined Oct 2007
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As has been noted there is a precedent for this: Foamies-scratch,Foamies-kit and EDF-scratch. The Builders topic seems more focused on construction techniques and ideas rather than building of a specific airplane. Just as there is an active group of folks who are interested in say 3D, or Warbirds, or Jets, there is an active group that is very interested in "building a plane from a kit or from plans" and these members would probably enjoy a "place" to go and see what others are building. Right now "builds" are scattered all over the place. Sometimes when you see a thread on "building plane X" you click on it only to find out that someone is "assembling an ARF". There was a time when everyone was a "builder" but those times are long gone. But for those who enjoy it and those who might want to explore it, their own "place" would be nice.
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 05:01 PM
Joined Nov 2011
89 Posts
Would it really be further fragmenting?

I would like to point out that a quick look at The Builders Workshop (BWS) has only one Scratch build thread posted in it. Now if you copy and paste this “site:rcgroups.com balsa scratch build” to Google and have a search, you will find that balsa scratch builds are scattered about and most are posted in someone’s blog. There is only a few other posts about kits and plans builds in the BWS. If this sub-forum for scratch building has existed for some time now why is no one using it?

There has been a lot of talk about further fragmenting RCG plethora of information with this new sub-forum but I think it my just add some straightening up, if you will. No one is using the builder workshop to post a scratch build and that has some fragmenting all in its own. Change the BWS description and remove the words scratch building, kits and plans and add, yes another sub-forum containing the words Scratch building, kits and plans in big bold letters for everyone to see this time.

This little sacrifice from the no voters will allow some of us here that feel Scratch building, kits and plans should have their own Sub-forum and a place to call home, just like it is with foam. The BWS will still continue on as it were and maybe RCG will straighten up a bit with new builds posted in the appropriate place.

I think the purpose of the new sub-forum is to eliminate the pointless chatter that’s in the BWS that’s irrelevant to a clean cut, unfragmented sub- forum dedicated to scratch building, kits and plans. Have a look at the BWS for today’s clutter, click on the picture for a better view.

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Quote:
If you just use the functionality that the forum software has to offer and click on the My RC Groups tag at the top left hand side of the page, all of the threads that you have posted to, or are following will appear in one page (or, if you are contributing to many threads, over a few pages). You can then see which have been updated, at a glance, and go directly to them
And

Quote:
It's particularly obvious when a new sign up to the forums makes a suggestion that we "need" a new forum, because they have not familiarised themselves with the existing forum structure (as in this case) or they have not familiarised themselves with the forum software options (as in the case of believing that one needs to view many fora to keep track of threads that one is already interested in). The "My RC Groups" function handles the latter requirement perfectly and users of that function even have the choice to not be exposed to the forum front pages at all, if that is their desire.

I would like to point out and acknowledge that I do know how to subscribe and follow a subscription, the way leccyflyer is suggesting. This method is useful to follow a thread once you have found what you’re looking for but serves no purpose when looking for threads to follow.

Quote:
It's particularly obvious when a new sign up to the forums makes a suggestion that we "need" a new forum, because they have not familiarised themselves with the existing forum structure (as in this case).
This is also something that is repeated over and over again and I do not fully believe that it's the reason why we want a new forum. Stop and have a search for kits or scratch builds for once and tell me what you think. I am repeating myself here, they are hard to find and are scatted about. If we can't have a so called duplicate forum that my help people post in one place than how can we fix this already fragmented problem?

leccyflyer I see where you are coming from when you say the forum is a copycat. I got on board supporting the new forum way back when I thought it was only for balsa scratch building, not kits, and since reading some of your post, I’m starting to question myself.

In conclusion, if the new sub forum in question is approved we may need to ask the administrators to update the Builders Workshop forum description and remove the words scratch building, kits and plans, seeing how it’s not used appropriately anyways, so there won’t be a duplicate forum description. Hopefully the new Balsa Scratch building, kits and plans sub-forum will organize RCG’s out of place posts; adding an on site searchable way of finding the new forum intended types of builds, all in one place.
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 05:13 PM
wood is good
loNslo's Avatar
United States, CA, Marina Del Rey
Joined Jun 2012
1,345 Posts
King--Good post!
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 05:32 PM
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epoxyearl's Avatar
United States, MD, Elkton
Joined Oct 2011
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Scallopking-impressive post covering most of what we want to do..

I'd like to clarify "kits",in the moniker....My thoughts on this,was concerning some modification to kits as a 'scratchbuilding' effort.
I usually build a kit with changes to the engine mounting system,which include a removeable firewall,tank and servo as a unit.The builder would be required to layout,design,cut and fit all components to do so.
Many smaller models (72") could benefit from a two piece wing,which would also need much effort to redesign a split system,with tube or spade joiners.This would benefit modelers with limited transportation space.

This discussion raises all those issues so the OP can present a request properly named so as to be easily identifiable.
I've been a fan of having a forum as a classroom,inviting constructive critism,new ideas,enhancing old ideas and ending useless chatter.

You said all that very well.Thank you.
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 05:40 PM
wood is good
loNslo's Avatar
United States, CA, Marina Del Rey
Joined Jun 2012
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Building from plans allows a builder plenty of freedom to make all kinds of changes. But (correct me if I'm wrong) scratch building is, I believe, working without the benefit of plans.
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 05:53 PM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
12,605 Posts
Thank you for a well argued post Scallopking. You put across your point of view very well and your suggestion that the description of the Builder's Workshop be amended in the event of a new forum is a good one.
The thing is that the forum structure has grown organically and the fundamental background organisation is based on model function, rather than construction method. There is more than a decade of posts made in that structure and creating a new forum for kits and scratchbuilds of all model types is not going to change that. The build threads for balsa scale models are still going to be split between all the various scale fora, with sports models likewise. Past experience has shown that every time that a new forum is created with the aim of gathering together a particular group of models, such as warbirds for example, all that happens is that the number of places that a thread can be placed is increased by one. A "cross-cutting" forum definition such as is proposed here would inevitably have the same result, namely just one extra place to put a thread that could be put in three or four other places. That is how fragmented the forum structure already is.
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 06:15 PM
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United States, MD, Elkton
Joined Oct 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loNslo View Post
Building from plans allows a builder plenty of freedom to make all kinds of changes. But (correct me if I'm wrong) scratch building is, I believe, working without the benefit of plans.
To a point you are correct....If you generate an idea,probably no plans exist...But there has to be something to keep thoughts aligned,as work progresses.Many model aircraft are built from an idea,parts cut and fitted,then plans are drawn.
The accepted definition for scratchbuilding currently,can be defined loosely as building from anyone's plans,cutting all parts your self...
That became a gray area,when the AMA invented "designer Scale" where the plans had to be scaled and developed by the builder of the model,which had the effect of redefining "scratch-built"to being able to build from someone else's drawings.
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Old Jul 24, 2012, 06:51 AM
Registered User
United States, NJ, Browns Mills
Joined May 2005
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I'm a strictly scratch-builder, where "scratch-building" is defined as building from my own plans. I'd love to see an area devoted to actual building (as opposed to assembling, i.e, ARF'ing or shrink-wrap removing. Plans-building, kit-building, kit-bashing, etc., would all fit in such a sub-forum..

CD
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