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Old Oct 19, 2012, 01:10 PM
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United States, WI, Fond du Lac
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Originally Posted by R_Lefebvre View Post
I'm not sure this should be fully open source. That would make it a really niche market, in the grand scheme of things. I think realistically they should provide a full-featured firmware, competitive with anything else on the market.
I agree. I'm confident that Frsky will do just that; ship the X12D with a competent, fully featured firmware with the capability to customize firmware for those who want or need additional capabilities.

As powerful as ER9x or Open9x are they are not for everyone. An intelligent set of "defaults" will best suit probably 90% of users. Having assisted others getting into open source firmware, it's clear that not everyone wants, needs or can handle the inevitable added complexity that comes with the vastly expanded capabilities of open source firmware.
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Old Oct 19, 2012, 01:56 PM
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United States, CA, Novato
Joined Sep 2003
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Originally Posted by pmullen503 View Post
As powerful as ER9x or Open9x are they are not for everyone. An intelligent set of "defaults" will best suit probably 90% of users. Having assisted others getting into open source firmware, it's clear that not everyone wants, needs or can handle the inevitable added complexity that comes with the vastly expanded capabilities of open source firmware.
Last night I had a number of flying buddies over for a build night. I passed around a 9X radio with the firmware upgrades on it. I asked the guys if they could figure out how to set up a simple aileron->rudder mix. None had 9X experience, but they all fly complex planes and are very familiar with radio mixing. Not one of them could figure it out. One was so stressed out over it that he asked for a manual. LOL While the 9X may be able to do a lot, it is not the "simple" radio for the masses.

I hope FrSky does much better, and developers keep in mind that ease of use is important.

-Wayne
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Old Oct 19, 2012, 03:45 PM
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In user-interface design there are two concepts to keep in mind, "Ease of Learning" and "Ease of Use". Introducing a product which operates differently from the existing or long-standing examples causes an initial ease-of-learning problem even if it is actually easier to use.

er9x/open9x face this challenge. However, once learned I suggest they are no harder, and in many ways easier, to use than many existing Tx with anything like comparable flexibility.

The inclusion of some predefined templates for common setups will certainly help address the 'getting started' challenge.
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Old Oct 19, 2012, 04:04 PM
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I was using a Hitec Aurora the other day to help out a buddy. That radio had a nice program "wizard" that seemed to work well. You simply told it the basic set up of your plane. ie: has a motor, flaps, ailerons and a v-tail. It then set up main mixing and channel assignments based on that configuration. I didn't play with it much, but I liked that OPTION. I would not want to be forced into it at all times. (I was stuck when I tried to add camber control to the ailerons only, but I'm sure it can do it, I just could not get it working to my liking in under 5 minutes. I did not care for the touch screen or some quirks to their GUI.)

-Wayne
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Old Oct 19, 2012, 07:12 PM
Flying a Chipmunk in Portugal
jhsa's Avatar
NRW, Germany
Joined Sep 2010
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Quote:
I'm clearly not familiar with 9x, not with er9x or open9x

But .... how can you make a digital trim push bottom ... from a spring less "linear" analogue input ?

It sound tricky and unnatural.
You're clearly not familiar with the 9x. where did you get the springless linear analogue input from?? A push button makes click, click, right? well the 9x does click, click, so the trims are push buttons, actually each trim has two of them have you ever seen a 9x?
Quote:
I also hear that the PPM signal from a 9x ... since has no real oscillator inside ... it is fluctuating with the temperature .... so ...
Have no oscillator inside? Atmega 64A working at 16MHz with a Xtal (quartz). So, no oscillator? Hmmmm, you're clearly not familiar with the 9x..
I also fly multirotors and If there were any fluctuations on my radio I think I'd have noticed them by now.. Maybe with stock firmware that happens, I don't know.. And even if it did, there are other known radios with bigger problems.. Like spektrum for example. I call them plane killers
Quote:
The 9x open software maybe magic ... you can make it speak ... do coffee ... but for me due to poor HW and cheap design ... it is just good for

I can be wrong ... most probably I will be proven so ... or at least you will try to ...

Tchuss
Yes it is magic. but only for those who take the time to learn how to work with their equipment.. so obviously not for everybody. I don't expect to have a futaba in my hands and learn how to work with it in 5 minutes..
but anyway I wouldn't be surprised if the frsky radios came out with one of the firmwares that are currently used on the 9x. Not surprised at all.
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 01:57 AM
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Austria
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Originally Posted by jhsa View Post
You're clearly not familiar with the 9x. where did you get the springless linear analogue input from?? A push button makes click, click, right? well the 9x does click, click, so the trims are push buttons, actually each trim has two of them have you ever seen a 9x?

Have no oscillator inside? Atmega 64A working at 16MHz with a Xtal (quartz). So, no oscillator? Hmmmm, you're clearly not familiar with the 9x..
I also fly multirotors and If there were any fluctuations on my radio I think I'd have noticed them by now.. Maybe with stock firmware that happens, I don't know.. And even if it did, there are other known radios with bigger problems.. Like spektrum for example. I call them plane killers


Yes it is magic. but only for those who take the time to learn how to work with their equipment.. so obviously not for everybody. I don't expect to have a futaba in my hands and learn how to work with it in 5 minutes..
but anyway I wouldn't be surprised if the frsky radios came out with one of the firmwares that are currently used on the 9x. Not surprised at all.
Right, after google around it, it has no springless linear analogue trim like the cheap tx, but it use the same cheap look, and a unnatural design , two push button would be much better

About unstable ppm, I seen a youtube video of a guy with 9x and multiwii ... signal move +/- 10, the double then my futaba ... bad sign ... but maybe is just a bad module in the 9x

Anyhow, the hw design, I mean location of switch, trims, etc ... is poor

FW maybe is magic .. maybe not

I will stay with my 99 futaba , almost 10 years old, but way better then a 9x.
Looking for FrSky if they can convince me to retire my old TX
Anyhow ... I dont get the futaba price, in 2004 I could get for 99 a new FX-18, now with cost of electronic much down compared to 2004, how is possible that only mega cheap TX are available at this price level

Tchuss

E_lm_70

Ps: hey ... compare with spectrum ... is unfair ... I'm amazed how much is popular this total junk TX and even more junky radio modules ..
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 04:45 AM
Flying a Chipmunk in Portugal
jhsa's Avatar
NRW, Germany
Joined Sep 2010
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Quote:
Right, after google around it, it has no springless linear analogue trim like the cheap tx, but it use the same cheap look, and a unnatural design , two push button would be much better
No, it's not the best looking radio, but I gotta say, it feels quite comfortable to fly..
And of course.. it is a cheap tx.. but one that does more and better than some if not most of the high end radios I know some people that sold their futabas and spektrums after getting their 9x modded with the custom firmwares, telemetry, etc
Quote:
I will stay with my 99 futaba , almost 10 years old, but way better then a 9x.
Good on you, but allow me to disagree..

Quote:
Looking for FrSky if they can convince me to retire my old TX
Anyhow ... I dont get the futaba price, in 2004 I could get for 99 a new FX-18, now with cost of electronic much down compared to 2004, how is possible that only mega cheap TX are available at this price level
The way you're thinking and being so loyal to your ancient tx, no, I don't think frsky will convince you..

Anyway, this thread is not about the 9x. it's about the new frsky radios.. But people are getting so impacient that must find other subjects to moan about..
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 03:32 PM
Happy FPV flyer
Kilrah's Avatar
United Arab Emirates, Dubai
Joined Sep 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70 View Post
two push button would be much better
But your FX-18 also has an "old style digital trim" too, no? So does the vast majority of recent radios. Works well and is convenient. There's the Robbe FX-40 with rotary encoders (but those are crap, as they respond too slowly and when you try to trim fast it just misses half of the steps), and the Jeti DC-16 has push buttons (not a fan of that myself, harder to "find" with the finger than "old-style" trims).
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70 View Post
About unstable ppm, I seen a youtube video of a guy with 9x and multiwii ... signal move +/- 10, the double then my futaba ... bad sign ... but maybe is just a bad module in the 9x
Yup, there are a few guys who got defective stock RF modules. Anyway, pretty much anybody who's serious about the 9x upgrades to frsky RF, and gains reliability and telemetry in the process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70 View Post
Anyhow, the hw design, I mean location of switch, trims, etc ... is poor
Huh? Everything just falls under the fingers. What exactly is so bad? For reference, the same case mould and layout are used in 500$ brand radios.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70 View Post
Anyhow ... I dont get the futaba price, in 2004 I could get for 99€ a new FX-18, now with cost of electronic much down compared to 2004, how is possible that only mega cheap TX are available at this price level
I really wonder where you got your FX18. I bought one in 2003 for approx. $500... BTW the FX series is made by Futaba, but specified and marketed by Robbe the way they like it, that can be (and is) different than Futaba themselves, although they're generally actually more expensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70 View Post
I will stay with my 99€ futaba , almost 10 years old, but way better then a 9x.
Well, each to his own. I pretty much haven't used my Futaba T14MZ anymore since I got my 9x with open9x, it takes me about 1/3rd of the time to setup a model on the 9x, and I can do many things the T14MZ can't. I'm actually trying to sell the T14 now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmullen503 View Post
I agree. I'm confident that Frsky will do just that; ship the X12D with a competent, fully featured firmware with the capability to customize firmware for those who want or need additional capabilities.
Exact, looks like it will be that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotozuk View Post
Last night I had a number of flying buddies over for a build night. I passed around a 9X radio with the firmware upgrades on it. I asked the guys if they could figure out how to set up a simple aileron->rudder mix. None had 9X experience, but they all fly complex planes and are very familiar with radio mixing. Not one of them could figure it out. One was so stressed out over it that he asked for a manual. LOL While the 9X may be able to do a lot, it is not the "simple" radio for the masses.
What the 9x firmwares lack is more up to date and complete documentation.
Someone who's got a logical mind will dive into it in a few minutes. For the others, it would be nothing more than reading the doc thoroughly, just like when switching from one brand radio to another.
Basically, IF you understand how a plane flies and what kind of input is required on the control surfaces to achieve flight then you'll be at home in no time on the 9x open source firmwares. If not, then indeed you won't be "saved" by the radio offering you things like a "delta mix" you can just activate without knowing what it does. I for one think that modelers would really benefit from knowing how their planes work instead of just applying what the book says... but seeing how the R/C market is currently working maybe i'm getting old a bit too quickly...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgfly View Post
In user-interface design there are two concepts to keep in mind, "Ease of Learning" and "Ease of Use". Introducing a product which operates differently from the existing or long-standing examples causes an initial ease-of-learning problem even if it is actually easier to use.
As said above, it's indeed just a matter of learning. Although the current tendency is more about plug-and-play, it wouldn't hurt to spend a day or 2 to learn how a new radio works after getting it... and by the way, it isn't really "operating differently from the existing or long-standing examples". The open source 9x firmwares are actually quite close to what Multiplex has been offiering on their radios for about 15 years. They aren't really known in the US, but are quite common in Europe. Owners usually love them for their flexibility for complicated models like gliders with tons of control surfaces.
The learning curve is a bit steeper, but once you've gone through it - possibilities are WAY wider than with a common commercial radio. As I've mentioned in another thread somewhere - common radios are useable after 5 minutes, but you'll spend all the years you own them trying to work around the limitations they have. 9x open source firmwares require a couple of days of learning, but once you understood the workings you'll spend 3x less time setting up each model. In the not so long run, the initial "investment" is much more than worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotozuk View Post
I was using a Hitec Aurora the other day to help out a buddy. That radio had a nice program "wizard" that seemed to work well. You simply told it the basic set up of your plane. ie: has a motor, flaps, ailerons and a v-tail. It then set up main mixing and channel assignments based on that configuration. I didn't play with it much, but I liked that OPTION.
Companion9x (the PC software that goes along with open9x) actually has a model setup wizard (still in beta). It's not possible to implement it on the 9x itself due to the hardware limitations (not enough flash memory to hold the relevant code) so you need to do the initial configuration of a model on the PC, then load it on the radio, and tweak it there. But there should be no problem to implement it on the upcoming FrSky radios.
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 04:07 PM
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Austria
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@kilrah

There is a huge difference between 9x and fx18 trim ... both are digital, but the 9x is looking a cheap analog trim, and it is too big for the job

The f18 99€ new, was the Lindinger price ages ago ... due to the low price it got very popular in austria and in germany too

Personally I find that old FM range, the new 2.4ghz still they can not beat it :-P

Clearly I have a FrSky module on my FX18 ... but my big bird are all FM

E_lm_70

Ps: personally I like the center linear channels, things that is not common in cheap tx like the 99€ old futaba ... anyhow .... I'm a big fan of FrSky ... so I'm very curious on what they can come up
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 04:57 PM
Flying a Chipmunk in Portugal
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NRW, Germany
Joined Sep 2010
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Quote:
There is a huge difference between 9x and fx18 trim ... both are digital, but the 9x is looking a cheap analog trim, and it is too big for the job
As far as I'm concerned, I don't really care how it looks like, but how it feels and how well it works.


Quote:
Personally I find that old FM range, the new 2.4ghz still they can not beat it :-P



Clearly I have a FrSky module on my FX18 ... but my big bird are all FM
As far as I know, there is more chance of interference with FM. ask me how I know that. Never had a problem with frsky till now and have friends that fly FPV with this system and they fly quite far without problems..
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 05:20 PM
60 years of RC flying
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Canada, ON, Ottawa
Joined Feb 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotozuk View Post
Last night I had a number of flying buddies over for a build night. I passed around a 9X radio with the firmware upgrades on it. I asked the guys if they could figure out how to set up a simple aileron->rudder mix. None had 9X experience, but they all fly complex planes and are very familiar with radio mixing. Not one of them could figure it out. One was so stressed out over it that he asked for a manual. LOL While the 9X may be able to do a lot, it is not the "simple" radio for the masses.
Few things are intuitive if they are unlike what you are used to! The ER9x approach is totally unlike the programming in a Spektrum, JR, Futaba or other popular radio, so it's not likely anyone would quickly be able to figure out how to use it. I spent a couple of hours or more with the manual before tackling programming and initially found it a bit strange. Once the penny dropped, however, it became clear and simple in a way that none of the "user-friendly" systems ever does. Everything is out there in the open. It simply does whatever you tell it to, but of course that requires you to know exactly what you want to do and how.

I would be very happy if FrSky adopted ER9x or a similar system for the new transmitter. Perhaps the very best would be an operating system that provides both a traditional type interface and one using an ER9x type "programming logic" approach. I do hope they provide a computer interface like eePe.
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 11:27 PM
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United States, WA, Richland
Joined May 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus66 View Post
Few things are intuitive if they are unlike what you are used to! The ER9x approach is totally unlike the programming in a Spektrum, JR, Futaba or other popular radio, so it's not likely anyone would quickly be able to figure out how to use it. I spent a couple of hours or more with the manual before tackling programming and initially found it a bit strange. Once the penny dropped, however, it became clear and simple in a way that none of the "user-friendly" systems ever does. Everything is out there in the open. It simply does whatever you tell it to, but of course that requires you to know exactly what you want to do and how.

I would be very happy if FrSky adopted ER9x or a similar system for the new transmitter. Perhaps the very best would be an operating system that provides both a traditional type interface and one using an ER9x type "programming logic" approach. I do hope they provide a computer interface like eePe.
ER9x is a completely different animal. I'm sure that if a single engine pilot climbed into an F-35 they'd probably be just as confused.
The simile is a valid one. The power of ER9x is unmatched by any but the highest of the high end radios.

As I've said many times before -- I was a dyed in the wool Futaba guy -- I bought the 2 9x radios to give away to our club for training -- but, as delivered, the trainer switch didn't work correctly. Once I went online to figure out how to fix this and ultimately got involved with er9x I very soon reluctantly abandoned my Futaba 7C radio because it just didn't have the mixing potential of the ER9x. This really was a difficult move because -- I love Futaba - my father loves Futaba and that's all either of us has flown since the '70s. Once I got a FrSky telemetry module and could get low voltage warnings .. there was no turning back.
With er9x I was confused at first (now I wonder why)-- but EEPE and later 9xCompanion helped me to 'play' with mixes that I never flew but started to conceive of simply because it was possible. Within weeks I found the way I thought about mixes changing too.
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70 View Post
There is a huge difference between 9x and fx18 trim ... both are digital, but the 9x is looking a cheap analog trim, and it is too big for the job
I've never used the fx18, but the trim on the 9x is identical to the trim button on any JR or Spektrum radio. And the same as most radios I've seen. Click up, or down, or left or right. Emulating the older analog trim adjusters that actually moved the pot isn't a bad thing in my opinion. The trim motions are natural enough.

I see on a picture of the fx18 what you might be talking about. Just personal preference, but I prefer the JR/Spektrum/9x way of doing the trim adjustment. It's easier to find without looking compared the the fx18. And even better, with er9x I can set the trim adjustment speed. Slow, med, fast, or exponential.
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 11:41 PM
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If FrSky is not to be relegated to some niche transmitter for radio tinkerers, they should keep up with the iPhone generation and come up with an easy and simple user interface. It can be done - see Spektrum DX8's very simple, but strong, UI.
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Old Oct 21, 2012, 12:57 AM
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Austria
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Originally Posted by Left Coast DJ View Post
If FrSky is not to be relegated to some niche transmitter for radio tinkerers, they should keep up with the iPhone generation and come up with an easy and simple user interface. It can be done - see Spektrum DX8's very simple, but strong, UI.
I consider both iPhone and Spektrum, two junky products for the dummy massar FrSky has been the "Android" equivalent .... I hope they go on in this way

Ps: money wise, I understand that is more easy to make money if you target the dummy mass ... especially if you give them the impression that owning the product you make them looking "smart"
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