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Old Apr 15, 2012, 08:47 PM
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Build Log
TF Model /Smart Model Apache AH-64 Build & Detailing

Hello from New Zealand!

Hope you guys are all finding the time and right weather to get some flight time in!

Im new to the site, into flying both scale and 3d, however my 3d skills are novice to say the least. Ive been flying since June of 2011, i own a couple of T-Rex 450's, one flybarless, one inside a hughes 500d, a Gaui X5, Compass knight 600e inside an align hughes 500d, about to upgrade to 5blade head.

im currently in the build stage of my new tf / smart model 600 size Apache. i followed horsemans build log, and he has given me some helpful tips and advice along the way, as has Kin from smartmodel.

Im running the trex-600esp mechanics, savox servos, spektrum 8ch receiver w/ dx8. 2x hyperion 4200 6sell, atlas 120 HV esc, hyperion 720kv motor smartmodel raised tail unit, double cats 4 blade head & tail rotors. beast x gyro. the headspeed calculator says with that set up, i should achieve 1600rpm headspeed at 62% flat throttle curve. ive flown the head higher already, so thats a decent outcome, leaving me lots of headroom either side if needed.


this is a partial build shot, ive since chopped down the tail, installed battery rack similar to horsemans, and new motor, esc, 12t pinion etc.


ive flown the 4 blade head unit with a two blade tail rotor, it flew really well and set up on the beast x is awesome. you can control a lot about the flight characteristics, but at this stage i have not flown the set up with the raised tail unit, as i'm currently waiting for the main rotor head to come back from the engineering dept at the Royal New Zealand Air Force. A friend of mine is re tapping some shotty original workmanship on the top center screw hole on top of the main rotor head, as it came from the manufacturer drilled on an angle. Once thats done, i can paint and attach my air sensor tower and fire it up without it oscillating wildly.

Thats the tech side out of the way, ill let you know my progress as i move forward.

as you can see shes a lean slender bird, and quite long compared to the hughes.

i started out by assembling and gluing the rocket pods and gave the original olive drab paint work a light sand, then added rivet dots made from dropping small dots of canopy glue along the fuse to give it a realistic effect. i also pre installed nav lights, and hid the wires out of the way until i install. ive opted to have the wings go on the fuse at the very last moment as they are so easy to knock and bang during the build. the fins on the hellfilre missles are also quite fragile.








I then used tamiya xf74 model paint and airbrushed the fuse section ready for later installation and clear coat.

i did the same with the turbine sections, and also added wire mesh, and painted exhaust marks and weathering. its time consuming, but the results look great if you are prepared to put in the work.



i then drilled out a hole in both sections of where you are instructed to glue the engine intake to the main turbine and inserted and epoxied a piece of metal tube, the way the manual instructs you to do it doesnt seem strong enough. now its sturdy!



For ventilation, ive installed a fan on either side of the fuse blowing cool air onto the mechanics.

i then drilled out holes to the aft of the main mechanics for the airflow. these are scale holes, and appear on this position on the apache ah-64b. i also added hinges(thanks for the idea horseman!)results!



More to come!
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Old Apr 15, 2012, 09:45 PM
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ive had my alloy parts painted and clear coated.

epoxied and filled/primed the tail boom joint section.

then proceeded to ad rivet lines, and paint

i gave the tail rotor housing some love too.

the apache has maintenance ladders on the port side, and some have a singular ladder rung on the starboard side for pilot access. Note, if you are thinking of adding hinges to your cockpit canopy, on a real apache the cockpit is only accessible to the pilot from the starboard(right)side. the port side does not open.

i dry assembled the targeting system and added rivets

i designed a little pushrod system for automating the targeting system. its pretty makeshift, but i have smooth rotation of all the moving parts and all are adjustable length for when it comes time to setting up the control servos.


this is my push pull system. i will work fine once i wire it up. this is a 550 size mainshaft collar with a piece of 8m torque tube through the middle, and both sides of the targeting system glued to either side of it, with a ball link coming from the grub screw hole on the collar.

for the top piece of the tageting system, i made a pretty straight forward system, the pictures explain it pretty well

inserted torque tube and glued

added ball link to thread the hole and removed

flipped her over, insterted the tube through an 8m hole added collar, and fitted so it was snug against a washer and the top of the underside, and tightened with ball link.

take no notice of the bearing, i drilled the hole too big first time and had to put a seased bearing in to get the correct fit. trust me, im a novice at tbest, and this is my first major build that has required any major modification and detailing. so im learning as i go...

i started work on the gun. very good instructions, and a simple build process from high grade laser cuts. i filled and detailed it, and added screws so it can pivot.


to allow the gun to rotate left and right, and pivot up and down, i (with the help of a brainstorming session at hobby city with my good mate ben) i nutted out a verticle rotating pushrod system by using 3mil and 2 mil hollow brass tube and creating a rotation tube. you can see the servos set up and i will add some video once the mechanics are installed. i can tell you it works really well, and by using aux 2 & 3 on my dx8, i can achieve a smooth 120degree rotation at 3 different aim settings, up(for non engagement) middle for horizon proning, and downward for ground attack. i had nearly given up on the idea, but then it all fell into place and now i have a fully controllable gun. the l&r rotating front servo also controls the l&r movement of the main targeting system, however needs more throw for wider angle of movement. as you can see ive got plenty of room for 2x 6cel 4200 hyperions, and they are easy to install and remove around the pivot mast. stoked!




Today, i ordered my scale 600 size apache cockpit panels from www.robcon-rc.com so i built myself a pilots dashboard ready for their arrival. i have read on horsemans page that there are pilots and seats available from smartmodel, but kin, if you are reading this, i did not get a reply from you about this?

ill paint it up and have it ready for the install.


heres a little detail i forgot to add in the last post...



thats where im up to so far! ill keep the pics and updates coming! hope this helps someone out there.
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 03:45 AM
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Hi Jay,

Nice Job you did so far.
I like the rivet dots you ad, I will take that idea and do it also, it makes it more real.

I was not really planning to build up a complete cockpit but the web-side you found for some scale panels looks promising.
So I wait to see how it looks by your Apache and decide if I will follow you.

I just received from Kin the track and trace of my new motor so that one will arrive soon .

Kind regards,

Jan,
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 04:42 AM
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thanks jan, i will keep you updated. i get my 4blade head tomorrow so i can finally test the mechanics with kins raised tail system. nervous! take care
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 07:02 AM
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Cheers Jay

So far u have done a right bang up job..great work,,,yeah i too am following Horseman's work
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Old Apr 23, 2012, 04:28 PM
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T-REX 600 Apache AH-64B Test flight #3

T-REX 600 Apache test flight #3.MOV (1 min 37 sec)


Hey all.

Well i assembled the bird, and have given her a few test flights. She flies like a dream, but unfortunately gets far too hot inside. My cooling fans are'nt connected yet but its more the engine and esc overheating. My 740kv, 3510 watt hyperion motor is not up to the task of lifting such a heavy bird at such low headspeeds. i cant increase it much higher without causing really bad vibration caused by having your headspeed too high. the same thing happens on my gauix5 when i crank the head up too high for 3d stuff. unfortunately on 4 blades its far worse.

Im currently having to run 1060rpm headspeed, (740kv motor, 120 watt high voltage esc, 2 x hyperion 6 cell 4200mah batteries 170t main gear, 12t pinion) with a flat 46% throttle at 50% throttle. i original thought this power train would be ok, and worked it out according after reading advice of a 1500-1700rpm headspeed. that is fine for a 2 blade head and tail rotor, but the extra lift created by 4 blades requires a much lower head speed and more torque depending on what your lifting i guess?

my motor temp read 130+ degrees, and that was after it had been sitting for 50-60 seconds. the esc was up around 70+ but cools fast because of the heat sync. its not safe to operate the motor at this temp as its max temp is 200deg,

the extra weight of 2x 6 cells plus the extra torque required for running essentially 3 torque drives and two extra gear boxes on the smartmodel raised tail unit also requires more torque.

moral of the story... 500kv hyperion 4000watt going in today, as my 500kv motor from smartmodel ended up being a bit of a mix up and i ended up with someone elses 800kv motor. bugger.

if anyone knows where to get 6m 12t pinions could they please let me know. The ones i bought from smart model to fit their 500kv motor are 5m, but their shafts are 6m.
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Old Apr 23, 2012, 04:49 PM
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United States, WA, Steilacoom
Joined Nov 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayNZ View Post
T-REX 600 Apache AH-64B Test flight #3

http://youtu.be/nupAj_RzD-c

Hey all.

Well i assembled the bird, and have given her a few test flights. She flies like a dream, but unfortunately gets far too hot inside. My cooling fans are'nt connected yet but its more the engine and esc overheating. My 740kv, 3510 watt hyperion motor is not up to the task of lifting such a heavy bird at such low headspeeds. i cant increase it much higher without causinwAg really bad vibration caused by having your headspeed too high. the same thing happens on my gauix5 when i crank the head up too high for 3d stuff. unfortunately on 4 blades its far worse.

Im currently having to run 1060rpm headspeed, (740kv motor, 120 watt high voltage esc, 2 x hyperion 6 cell 4200mah batteries 170t main gear, 12t pinion) with a flat 46% throttle at 50% throttle. i original thought this power train would be ok, and worked it out according after reading advice of a 1500-1700rpm headspeed. that is fine for a 2 blade head and tail rotor, but the extra lift created by 4 blades requires a much lower head speed and more torque depending on what your lifting i guess?

my motor temp read 130+ degrees, and that was after it had been sitting for 50-60 seconds. the esc was up around 70+ but cools fast because of the heat sync. its not safe to operate the motor at this temp as its max temp is 200deg,

the extra weight of 2x 6 cells plus the extra torque required for running essentially 3 torque drives and two extra gear boxes on the smartmodel raised tail unit also requires more torque.

moral of the story... 500kv hyperion 4000watt going in today, as my 500kv motor from smartmodel ended up being a bit of a mix up and i ended up with someone elses 800kv motor. bugger.

if anyone knows where to get 6m 12t pinions could they please let me know. The ones i bought from smart model to fit their 500kv motor are 5m, but their shafts are 6m.
don't do the 12t pinion, it cost me a 600 size EC145. Pinion broke in half in mid flight, you can guess the rest of the story. With the HS4035-500, you should be looking into 14t, 15t, or 16t. I had a HS4035-560 and had to go low on the Pinion also but those 12t are an accident waiting to happen I kost myq bird, but if I can prevent some elses to fail then I have done my job.

Take it from some one who lost a beautiful bird this weekend over a 12t Pinion. A video of the EC145 in flight before the mishap... and in the garage waiting for winter resurrection.

EC145_last_flight.mpeg (6 min 26 sec)
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 12:43 AM
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Damn! Sorry for your loss man that's gotta hurt and thanks for the advice. I've had to get the 12t pinion wi 5m hole drilled to 6m and it's left it rather thin to say the least. The 13 t looks a bit thicker might try that, but tbh, my head speed is at its max already with 12t pinion. My engine is still running hot so I'm wondering if it's a ventilation issue as well as head speed too low I may have to look into a better quality head. This double cats one seems to berestricting me. Thanks for the advice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by josereyes View Post
don't do the 12t pinion, it cost me a 600 size EC145. Pinion broke in half in mid flight, you can guess the rest of the story. With the HS4035-500, you should be looking into 14t, 15t, or 16t. I had a HS4035-560 and had to go low on the Pinion also but those 12t are an accident waiting to happen I kost myq bird, but if I can prevent some elses to fail then I have done my job.

Take it from some one who lost a beautiful bird this weekend over a 12t Pinion. A video of the EC145 in flight before the mishap... and in the garage waiting for winter resurrection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kan-x...ature=youtu.be
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 09:28 AM
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Hi Jay,

You wrote:
moral of the story... 500kv hyperion 4000watt going in today

Just build this 500kV motor in with a 13 pinion and use 8 or 10 cells, you will see that when you increases your throttle curve to 70% or higher the motor temperature will go down and flight time must growing longer.
But a head speed of less than 1100/1200 are wise because the Heli are heavy and with a very low head-speed you do not got a fast response on the pitch.

I run my head at 1250 rpm and its slow enough to keep the TF blades in sync and giving enough power to react fast if needed, then going slower will give otherwise problems to keep the tail steady.

By the way,
Nice, very nice looking Apache you have flying there

Regards,

Jan,
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 04:13 PM
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Thanks jan, I have installed 500kv Hyperion with 12t pinion, wired up cooling fans, plus added one that blows directly onto the motor all powered off their own 12volt battery. I've increased my throttle curve to 55 70 70 70 and the motor temp is warm still but not super hot. The esc runs super cool. My flight time is increasing as I increase my throttle curve also. I'm taking her to the field today, and if required will swap the pinions out and re calibrate.

So close!





Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseman View Post
Hi Jay,

You wrote:
moral of the story... 500kv hyperion 4000watt going in today

Just build this 500kV motor in with a 13 pinion and use 8 or 10 cells, you will see that when you increases your throttle curve to 70% or higher the motor temperature will go down and flight time must growing longer.
But a head speed of less than 1100/1200 are wise because the Heli are heavy and with a very low head-speed you do not got a fast response on the pitch.

I run my head at 1250 rpm and its slow enough to keep the TF blades in sync and giving enough power to react fast if needed, then going slower will give otherwise problems to keep the tail steady.

By the way,
Nice, very nice looking Apache you have flying there

Regards,

Jan,
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 05:44 PM
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hey jose,

tempting fate, i spooled her up to do a headspeed test, had your comments in the back of my mind,..well, quite up front actually...next minute, 4ft off the grounf, ggggrrrrrmmmmm gggggrrrruwompwomp.....i think someone should inform align theres a serious flaw with thiei 12t pinions. shotty aluminium.

are you sure you are not telepathic?


14T PINION upgrade, & voltage downgrade to 10cell. should give me max headspeed of 1500 rpm, all i need is 1150-1200, and the extra 6 cell battery can be used for my gauix5.

close call!





Quote:
Originally Posted by josereyes View Post
don't do the 12t pinion, it cost me a 600 size EC145. Pinion broke in half in mid flight, you can guess the rest of the story. With the HS4035-500, you should be looking into 14t, 15t, or 16t. I had a HS4035-560 and had to go low on the Pinion also but those 12t are an accident waiting to happen I kost myq bird, but if I can prevent some elses to fail then I have done my job.

Take it from some one who lost a beautiful bird this weekend over a 12t Pinion. A video of the EC145 in flight before the mishap... and in the garage waiting for winter resurrection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kan-x...ature=youtu.be
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayNZ View Post
hey jose,

tempting fate, i spooled her up to do a headspeed test, had your comments in the back of my mind,..well, quite up front actually...next minute, 4ft off the grounf, ggggrrrrrmmmmm gggggrrrruwompwomp.....i think someone should inform align theres a serious flaw with thiei 12t pinions. shotty aluminium.

are you sure you are not telepathic?


14T PINION upgrade, & voltage downgrade to 10cell. should give me max headspeed of 1500 rpm, all i need is 1150-1200, and the extra 6 cell battery can be used for my gauix5.

close call!
I hope you were able to bring her down safely.... Mine was not an align pinion it was a Revco hardened pinion, but it didn't make a difference...
Here are my settings for the HS4035-500kv on the ICE2HV80 ESC...
So far is keeping the esc and motor cooler.
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Old Apr 26, 2012, 02:21 PM
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yeah it was litterally 4-5 seconds after take off. i had enough headspeed, hit throttle hold as soon as i heard the noise and brought her back to the ground nice and softly. just a shame, it was running so damn smooth. zero vibration, and bringing her back down and slowly notching up the headspeed every 1 minute of flight time ironed out the vibration even more.

i will look at your settings and go from there.

thanks.





Quote:
Originally Posted by josereyes View Post
I hope you were able to bring her down safely.... Mine was not an align pinion it was a Revco hardened pinion, but it didn't make a difference...
Here are my settings for the HS4035-500kv on the ICE2HV80 ESC...
So far is keeping the esc and motor cooler.
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Old Apr 26, 2012, 02:29 PM
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jose, what kind of blades are you using on your multi blade to allow such a high headspeed?

with my tf model 600 size, they are quite soft, carbon infused single sided, and do not allow for me to go past 1250rpm max otherwise i get a terrible hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm sound and violent vibration.

i can also see how your motor and esc would stay cooler on 12c running that pinion and headspeed. jealous. in sayibng that, one might assume pinions break under increased stress caused by high headspeeds? mine worked until i cranked the headspeed up too. high. but was also wafer thin. def a combination of the two.

the apache 600 size is so heavy. i havent weighed it, but would estimate the entire bird, with batteries would weigh somewhere in the 4.5-5 kilo region.

im just waiting on my new main gear, as i lost some teeth, then will go back to 14t pinion. see how i get on.






Quote:
Originally Posted by josereyes View Post
I hope you were able to bring her down safely.... Mine was not an align pinion it was a Revco hardened pinion, but it didn't make a difference...
Here are my settings for the HS4035-500kv on the ICE2HV80 ESC...
So far is keeping the esc and motor cooler.
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Old Apr 26, 2012, 03:05 PM
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United States, WA, Steilacoom
Joined Nov 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayNZ View Post
jose, what kind of blades are you using on your multi blade to allow such a high headspeed?

with my tf model 600 size, they are quite soft, carbon infused single sided, and do not allow for me to go past 1250rpm max otherwise i get a terrible hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm sound and violent vibration.

i can also see how your motor and esc would stay cooler on 12c running that pinion and headspeed. jealous. in sayibng that, one might assume pinions break under increased stress caused by high headspeeds? mine worked until i cranked the headspeed up too. high. but was also wafer thin. def a combination of the two.

the apache 600 size is so heavy. i havent weighed it, but would estimate the entire bird, with batteries would weigh somewhere in the 4.5-5 kilo region.

im just waiting on my new main gear, as i lost some teeth, then will go back to 14t pinion. see how i get on.
I'm using the Copter X flapping hinge head and carbon fiber blades, but when the pinion broke, I was using the RCA plug-n-play head for 600 and the Funkey scale fiberglass blades..

I used the Scale blades with that head speed and they performed very well, only reason I took them off is because they were balooning too much, we have a constant moderate to high winds where we are and I was chasing them most of the time, so I decided to use the scale fiberglass/carbon fiber. Since I move into the flapping hinge head, the scale blades do not fit on the grips, so that 's another reason, why I'm not using them..
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