SMALL - espritmodel.com SMALL - Telemetry SMALL - Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Apr 14, 2012, 08:48 AM
bobepine's Avatar
Joined Jun 2011
7,619 Posts
Mini-Review
Xtreme Productions Solo Pro 328 & Other Mods

I have recently tested the Extreme Productions parts I have received from www.miraclemart.com for the Solo pro 328. In this thread, I will review these parts, and then, I will also add a comprehensive list of other popular modifications that I and others have performed on this model.

I have now owned two of these helis and I have modded them extensively. Most pilots have the same four complaints about the 328.

1-Sudden loss of control coming out of turns (death dives)

2- Flybar strikes

3- Not enough servo throw. The heli is slow and it doesn't fly well outside, especially if it's windy.

4- The flybar, and the swash plate break easily.

All true. This pretty much sums up the Solo pro 328, out of the box.

The good news is there are modifications that can be done to make this heli perform much, much better. Some of these modifications are simple, easy to perform and inexpensive. I will go through these modifications in this thread.

But if you want the cream of the crop, then the Xtreme Productions parts is your ticket. These parts solve the above numbered problems 1, 2, and 4, and they greatly help with number 3 as well.

In the next post, I will review each part and I will add flight videos and pictures.

If you are modding your Solo pro 328, please do post about it to let us know what you're doing and how it's working out for you.

Chris
bobepine is online now Find More Posts by bobepine
Site Sponsor
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Apr 14, 2012, 08:48 AM
bobepine's Avatar
Joined Jun 2011
7,619 Posts
Xtreme Productions Parts Review

Extreme Flybar



The good:

-Eliminates flybar strikes and provides good self stabilization. This means no more death dives or crashes due to flybar strikes.

-Comes with different size weights. I find using both the small and the big weights together gives me the best flight characteristics.

The bad:

-The flybar kit includes some very small screws and the flybar itself has to be properly adjusted for tail boom and canopy clearance and it has to be balanced after assembly. This is not difficult to do, but beginners are advised to learn about balancing a flybar.Personally, I think it's nice to be able to adjust the throw on the flybar.

Special Notes:

-Make sure to use locktite on the screws.

-Be careful not to get any locktite on any of the moving parts where the flybar is mounted to the rotor head. The flybar has to move freely. It's best to put a bit of locktite in the hole instead of on the screws.

-Do not over tighten the screws. Just seat them nicely and check on them between flights. I have had to tighten mine mildly after a few flights and things have stayed together very well since. This is very much like any heli with metal parts.

__________________________________________________ _____________


Xtreme Swash Plate



The good:

-Crisp cyclic response and durability. The swash plate is prone to break on the 328. This is the solution.

The bad:

-None

Special notes:

-The ball links are screwed into the swash plate body. Include them in your pre-flight inspection to make sure they are not coming loose. Mine have not budged. They are staying put very well, but it's worth having a look from time to time, at least.

__________________________________________________ _____________


Xtreme Blades Grips and Mixing Arms



The Good:

-Durable

-Nice tight fit using the stock feathering shaft and o-rings

-Mixing arms have three mounting position for the ball links. This provides more options. The shortest links provides more stability while the longer links allow the heli to bank more in turns. It's nice to have these options.

-The bushings provided with the blades grips and mixing arms kit are nice and long. This allows the mixing arms to move freely even when the screws are nicely tighten.

Special Notes:

-Make sure to use locktite.

-Be careful not to get any locktite on the mixing arms moving parts.

-Do not over tighten the screws.

-Lubricate the feathering shaft and o-rings after every 10 flights

-Inspect all screws before every flights as you should on any heli.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________


Xtreme Rotor Head



The good:

-It fits perfectly onto the stock main shaft.

-Very durable

-It looks good!

The bad:

-Linkages have to be adjusted after installation. Beginners are advised to learn about mechanically trimming a 4 channels heli before installing this part. It's easy to do. You just have to know how to do it.

Special Notes:

-Make sure to line up the hole on the main shaft with the hole on the rotor head when you insert the mounting screw.

-The linkage between the swash plate and the mixing arms will have to be lengthen a bit to level the swash plate. Beginners are also advised to learn about leveling a swash plate on a 4 channels heli.

*** Note that the swash will have to be slightly tilted for the heli to hover stable.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________

Extreme Anti-rotation Collar


The good:

-Literally unbreakable

The bad:

-None

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________

Final Word:

The good:

-The Xtreme Productions parts are all welcome modifications on the 328, in my opinion. They are more durable, the cyclic response is excellent, the heli self stabilizes well and no flybar strikes can be had. The heli is fast, agile and responsive.

The bad:

-The parts are pricey. You get what you pay for, though, I think, with the 328's upgrade parts. Just look at other helis that come with metal and carbon fiber parts. They cost a lot more. I think the 328 with the Xtreme part is an affordable setup, all things considered. It's up there holding its own, in terms of performance, against some far more expensive 4 channels models in its size category.

-The parts are heavier. This will affect flight time a bit. However, this can be easily addressed with using bigger batteries. This and other mods will be explained in my next post.

And now here's an indoor flight and an outdoor flight showing the Xtreme Productions Solo Pro 328 in action. As mentioned in the outdoor flight video, I think this is the fastest flight video of the 328 on the internet. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Enjoy the videos!

Chris

Xtreme Productions Solo Pro 328 - Fast Outdoor Flight (6 min 52 sec)


Xtreme Productions Solo Pro 328 Indoor Flight. (4 min 3 sec)
bobepine is online now Find More Posts by bobepine
Site Sponsor
Last edited by bobepine; Apr 14, 2012 at 12:42 PM. Reason: Adding content
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 14, 2012, 08:54 AM
bobepine's Avatar
Joined Jun 2011
7,619 Posts
OK so... The 328 is a tad slow out of the box and it has poor self stabilization due to a the flybar being too light. There are things that can be done to drastically improve the performance of the 328. In this post, I will list each modifications and I will explain them a bit.

If you have performed other modifications that are not mentioned here, you are welcome to share with us.


Flybar modifications

Modifying the flybar on the 328 is not easy because solving one issue exacerbate the other. The flybar that is too light causing poor self stabilization and crashes but it also strikes the canopy and the tail boom in flight. Adding weight to the flybar ends solves the self stabilization issue, but it facilitates flybar strikes as the plastic bends further with the added weight. Additionally, if the method you use to add weight also adds size to the flybar weights, this effectively reduces the flybar clearance.

On the other hand, if the fly bar is shortened to avoid flybar strikes, then the self stabilization problem is aggravated. You fix one problem and the other problem becomes worse, is what it comes down to.

The Xtreme flybar is the only mod that, so far, combines a solution for both problems. It's adjustable, it doesn't bend and it's heavy enough to solve self stabilization issues at the same time.

An easy way to add weight to the flybar is to wrap soldering led line around the ends of the flybar. It's easy to test different weights and it takes no time.

V-Man uses led tape. This would work well, but it enlarges the size of the flybar weights, and as such, it reduces flybar clearance. It's better than doing nothing, though. It will help the heli fly much nicer.

The best I have come up with is a semblance of a Z flybar. I drilled the flybar weights and inserted brass weights. Different weights can be tried out and it doesn't add size to the flybar end. Flybar clearance remains unaffected. The problem with this mod is you need the proper tools. This would be very hard, if not impossible to do with just a hand drill. here's what it looks like:






So far, three of us have used this setup and we all have good reviews. But again, you still end up with flybar strikes caused by the added weight on the flybar ends. The flybar bends too much. That said, the flybar needs at least 1.5 grams added to each end of the flybar in order to solve the self stabilization issue.


The Extreme flybar is the only mod that really straightens this mess. Here's a picture a my 328 with a modded tail boom to avoid crash-provoking flybar strikes to the tail boom. This is tedious!




Center of Gravity Modifications

Different things have been tried to shift the COG forward on the 328 in order to provide better FFF and wind fighting capability. Here's one example:



The above is not ideal because it adds dead weight to the heli. It's better to move the battery forward, but that's not easily done without extensive modification to the battery tray. The best method I have seen so far was done by me. I installed a Walkera V120D02s battery in place of the stock battery tray. This not only shifts the COG forward, but it allows using a larger battery. Here are some pictures.




The above requires cutting the undercarriage of the canopy a little. The stock battery tray needs to be cut off and the V120D02s battery tray can then be screwed directly onto the 328 frame. No glue required, though CA glue would also work. I used both just to make it stronger, but I'm sure drilling small holes and short screws is plenty strong.

Performance Modifications

The most common complaint we have heard from people who purchase the 328 is that it cannot fly outside if there is any wind whatsoever. It's true. The servo travel on the 328 is too limited and to this day, no one has found a way to adjust the servo end points. So... In order for the 328 to fly well outdoor, it has to be modified.

Above, we covered shifting the COG forward to help the heli move faster in FFF, and this helps in windy conditions. Other things can be done to make the 328 even faster.

1- Free Spirit 220a main blades cut up to be about 5mm to 10mm shorter than the stock 328 blades offer more performance. Better lift, more punch and better flight time.

2- Using a Blade 120SR upgrade motor by Xtreme Productions increases power and flight time. Here's a link to the motor in question: http://www.miracle-mart.com/store/in...oducts_id=7356

3- Manually adjusting the elevator linkage to trade backward servo throw for more forward throw is an excellent way of providing more forward speed and better wind fighting capability. To do this, the elevator servo linkage has to be lengthened and then subtrims have to be used to trim the heli back to a stable hover. This will essentially change the resting point of the elevator servo, and in terms, it will increase the forward servo travel. I have actually attached two linkages together using dental floss and CA glue in order to make the elevator linkage even longer. This works very well and, along with other modifications, my 328 is no capable of flying in fairly strong wind.

4- Using the Xtreme Productions Metal Parts, especially the mixing arms, help the 328 fight the wind better, IME. IN fact, using the modifications described in this section and the Xtreme parts is my all time favorite setup for the 328. More information about the Xtreme parts can be found in the first 2 posts of this thread.
bobepine is online now Find More Posts by bobepine
Site Sponsor
Last edited by bobepine; Apr 29, 2012 at 06:21 AM. Reason: Adding Content
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 14, 2012, 08:54 AM
bobepine's Avatar
Joined Jun 2011
7,619 Posts
Reserved 3 (FAQ)
bobepine is online now Find More Posts by bobepine
Site Sponsor
Old Apr 14, 2012, 01:11 PM
Did you check the FAQ already?
SoloProFan's Avatar
The Netherlands
Joined Jul 2010
12,512 Posts
Good start. Just a few side notes, the loss of control during a turn, assuming you mean the problem that arises when making a left turn, is more a death spiral than a dive. Death dive is more commonly used for the sudden dive helis can do when speeding up in FFF. It sounds like you meant a different thing.


As for the lack of drawbacks on the Xtreme parts, doesn't the added weight shorten flight times? On the Solo Pro, going "full metal" will make the heli more sluggish, and cost about 30% time in the air. Perhaps the weight penalty is less there on a bigger heli like the 328, but it must be noticable somehow, right?
SoloProFan is online now Find More Posts by SoloProFan
RCG Plus Member
Old Apr 14, 2012, 01:27 PM
bobepine's Avatar
Joined Jun 2011
7,619 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloPro View Post
Good start.
Well, thanks. But don't expect a bible like what you wrote for the smaller Solo Pros.

Quote:
Just a few side notes, the loss of control during a turn, assuming you mean the problem that arises when making a left turn, is more a death spiral than a dive. Death dive is more commonly used for the sudden dive helis can do when speeding up in FFF. It sounds like you meant a different thing.
I'm gathering you've never flown a 328, and in your mind, the issue on the 328 is similar to the death spirals on the Solo Pro 260. It's not. The stock 328 doesn't spiral out of control. It dives to its death. It just shoots left or right on the ailerons and it keeps moving in that direction until it hits the first solid object in its path. The flybar is simply too light and it fails to stabilize the heli. It doesn't spiral. It's just dives sideways into the ground.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloPro View Post
As for the lack of drawbacks on the Xtreme parts, doesn't the added weight shorten flight times? On the Solo Pro, going "full metal" will make the heli more sluggish, and cost about 30% time in the air. Perhaps the weight penalty is less there on a bigger heli like the 328, but it must be noticable somehow, right?
I have talked about this in my first post in this thread. Here's a quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobepine
The parts are heavier. This will affect flight time a bit. However, this can be easily addressed with using bigger batteries. This and other mods will be explained in my next post.
Best,
Chris
bobepine is online now Find More Posts by bobepine
Site Sponsor
Old Apr 14, 2012, 04:08 PM
Did you check the FAQ already?
SoloProFan's Avatar
The Netherlands
Joined Jul 2010
12,512 Posts
Ah, so it's not the sideways/backwards spiral a 260 or SX can enter when making a too agressive left banked turn? I see. Since it falls sideways perhaps "death roll" might slightly more appropriate, but perhaps that is nitpicking from me.


Missed that final part about the weight penalty. Perhaps it would be nice to check the impact on flight times. Bigger batteries are not always an option, as these will be heavier, and the amount of lift the heli can generate is limited by the main motor. Climb rate and eventually FFF will be affected if the weight increases. Like I said, on a bigger heli the impact might be less present, but it has to affect handling.
SoloProFan is online now Find More Posts by SoloProFan
RCG Plus Member
Old Apr 14, 2012, 10:49 PM
bobepine's Avatar
Joined Jun 2011
7,619 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloPro View Post
Ah, so it's not the sideways/backwards spiral a 260 or SX can enter when making a too agressive left banked turn? I see. Since it falls sideways perhaps "death roll" might slightly more appropriate, but perhaps that is nitpicking from me.
Correct. The good news is the Xtreme upgrades eliminate this issue completely. The added weight on the flybar and the rigidity of the Xtreme flybar rods make all the difference.


Quote:
Missed that final part about the weight penalty. Perhaps it would be nice to check the impact on flight times. Bigger batteries are not always an option, as these will be heavier, and the amount of lift the heli can generate is limited by the main motor. Climb rate and eventually FFF will be affected if the weight increases. Like I said, on a bigger heli the impact might be less present, but it has to affect handling.
This heli is capable of handling some extra weight, especially with the 120SR Xtreme motor. When it comes to using bigger, heavier batteries, the key is to use batteries a high discharge rate.

I'm using two different kinds of batteries with the 328. Walkera 650mAh 25c, and no name 950mAh 30c. The Walkera 650mAh is lighter but the discharge is less so the flying characteristic is about the same as using the heavier 950mAh batteries. Frankly, the weight difference is hardly noticeable in terms of handling and flight characteristics.

Flight time is about 5 minutes with the 650mAh and about 7 minutes with the 950mAh. 7 minutes is excellent. That's right about the same as the stock 328 using the stock battery, but the performance is at least double. The video speaks for itself... The 328 is almost moving as fast as a CP heli of the same size!

Just hovering around indoor, I can get almost 10 minutes with the 950mAh and close to 7 minutes with the 650mAh. But when demonstrating FFF outdoor, especially on windy days, I have the heli on full throttle most of the time, punching it back and forth. But then again, 7 minutes of FFF cutting through wind gets no complaints from me. By then it's time to land and let the motors cool down for a few minutes.

At this point, I'm not worried about weight at all. I actually removed 10 grams of dead weight from the nose, and even with that, it was flying well.

I have a Bell-206 fuselage coming from South Africa (Thanks to AchilesElbow), and I think my 328 will handle the extra weight with no issues. I am looking forward to see how the fuselage will affect flight, though. I'll post videos. The 328 will look very sweet with that fuselage!



I plan to install nav lights on it and do night flying.

And finally, Xtreme Productions will soon release CF landing skids and a tail boom for the 328. I am told the tail boom is modified and will eliminate flybar strikes, even when using a stock flybar. I will get to review these parts as well when they are released.

Best,
Chris
bobepine is online now Find More Posts by bobepine
Site Sponsor
Old Apr 15, 2012, 10:30 AM
Airplane and Heli Flyer
V-Man's Avatar
Canada, QC, Montreal
Joined Dec 2009
1,593 Posts
If you can't afford an Xtreme flybar, it's still possible to easily add weight to the stock one. Here's my method -- not the best, not the only, but it works well and requires less than five minutes.

1) Take the flybar off the helicopter;
2) Cut 2 pieces of 1" of lead tape and shape them around a pencil (don't remove the backing paper);
3) Cut 2 pieces of 0.5x1.5" black electrical tape (keep some trimmings);
4) Remove backing paper and carefully stick the lead tape around the flybar weights. The tape is the width of the weights, and the 1" length will leave a tiny gap at the bottom if wrapped tightly.
5) Apply black vinyl tape on top. It has two purposes, safety (the lead tape glue is strong, but...) and looks.
6) Balance flybar on a thin pin. I usually have to add a very tiny piece of black tape on one side.
6a) Optional: put a piece of shrink tubing over the modified flybar weight to secure everything if you prefer. I leave it off for now.
7) Mount the flybar back on the heli.

This adds maybe 1.5 gr on each side of the flybar, but the added control is huge. And best part, it's an entirely reversible mod -- just pull off the tape.
V-Man is offline Find More Posts by V-Man
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 15, 2012, 10:47 AM
bobepine's Avatar
Joined Jun 2011
7,619 Posts
This is a good flybar mod, indeed. Easy, reversible, effective and clean looking. Thanks for posting, Sir.

Chris

Edit: I forgot to mention that unfortunately, the above flybar mod doesn't solve the flybar strikes issue. It helps a whole lot with stability, though.
bobepine is online now Find More Posts by bobepine
Site Sponsor
Last edited by bobepine; Apr 16, 2012 at 10:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 15, 2012, 12:37 PM
Did you check the FAQ already?
SoloProFan's Avatar
The Netherlands
Joined Jul 2010
12,512 Posts
Added a link to this thread to the first post of the regular 328 thread.
SoloProFan is online now Find More Posts by SoloProFan
RCG Plus Member
Old Apr 16, 2012, 04:44 AM
Registered User
South Africa, GP, Johannesburg
Joined Dec 2011
1,775 Posts
Here are some pics of the CF rod using the xtreme 120SR paddles, this is the best configuration i have found so far with the xtreme kit and motor...


I have tried this using the aluminiunm bars that come with the paddles.. this would make it very durable, but the bars are heavier and shorter and this adds too much weight. it is workable if you dont mind the weight.

The paddles have a quite bit of space to add weight, if you find heavy enough steel,brass or lead rods you can add them inside the paddles and remove the bigger brass weight you see in the pic, perhaps get away with the smaller xtreme weight or even no other weight. (Note i am using the long 328 mainblade screw in paddle for a little additional weight... in this configuration it weighs the same as having the two brass weights on without the paddles.

Like this the performance is great...

just a note on the screws on the CF flybar...
if u are using the xtreme head and waant to avoid flybar strikes you have to "ignore" the screw groove in the CF bar- this Chris has mentioned before.

I found that if you use the paddles and ignore this groove, its best you add some CA/nail glue to keep the bar from slipping out of the flybar centre holder...

ill post some vids later tonight...
ArchillesElbow is offline Find More Posts by ArchillesElbow
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 16, 2012, 04:51 AM
Registered User
Maurizio73's Avatar
Italia, Lazio, Rieti
Joined Jan 2012
70 Posts
Quote:
Xtreme Swash Plate



The good:

-Crisp cyclic response and durability. The swash plate is prone to break on the 328. This is the solution.

The bad:

-None

Special notes:

-The ball links are screwed into the swash plate body. Include them in your pre-flight inspection to make sure they are not coming loose. Mine have not budged. They are staying put very well, but it's worth having a look from time to time, at least.
Sorry Chris, i must disagree with you about "the bad" point: a bad point is the very expensiveness; the possibility of repairing the stock part and the price of the Xtreme part make more convenient to have two/three stock pieces. I think you'll never spent as the alu mod.
Maurizio73 is offline Find More Posts by Maurizio73
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 16, 2012, 10:18 AM
bobepine's Avatar
Joined Jun 2011
7,619 Posts
Quote:
Added a link to this thread to the first post of the regular 328 thread.
Thank you, good, Sir.

ArchillesElbow, your 328 looks nice, mate. I wonder if this is not your best configuration, perhaps, simply because it's also the most weight on the flybar? As seen in the videos, mine flies nice but I think it could use a bit more weight on the flybar. Just a bit more.

Quote:
Sorry Chris, i must disagree with you about "the bad" point: a bad point is the very expensiveness; the possibility of repairing the stock part and the price of the Xtreme part make more convenient to have two/three stock pieces. I think you'll never spent as the alu mod.
I can see your point. The price difference is big, indeed, between the stock swash plate and the Xtreme metal upgrade. That said, the swash has always been the weak link on my 328s. A hard hit on the blades almost always breaks a swash arm or a ball link on the upper swash. It's tedious to repair, and if you repair it too well, the other arm or another ball link will break instead on the next crash. I actually dislike the stock swash on the 328 very much. It's just not up to the job. Looking back at when I was a beginner, I'd probably go through 4 or 5 swash plates in a month.

The Xtreme swash is pretty much unbreakable and you don't have to worry about fixing it all the time. Plus, it's more crisp on the cyclic. I know, I know... It's not exactly cheap but I think it's worth it for someone who plans to fly the 328 for a while.

Just my 2 cents.

Best,
Chris
bobepine is online now Find More Posts by bobepine
Site Sponsor
Old Apr 16, 2012, 11:45 AM
Registered User
South Africa, GP, Johannesburg
Joined Dec 2011
1,775 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobepine View Post
Thank you, good, Sir.

ArchillesElbow, your 328 looks nice, mate. I wonder if this is not your best configuration, perhaps, simply because it's also the most weight on the flybar? As seen in the videos, mine flies nice but I think it could use a bit more weight on the flybar. Just a bit more.

I can see your point. The price difference is big, indeed, between the stock swash plate and the Xtreme metal upgrade. That said, the swash has always been the weak link on my 328s. A hard hit on the blades almost always breaks a swash arm or a ball link on the upper swash. It's tedious to repair, and if you repair it too well, the other arm or another ball link will break instead on the next crash. I actually dislike the stock swash on the 328 very much. It's just not up to the job. Looking back at when I was a beginner, I'd probably go through 4 or 5 swash plates in a month.

The Xtreme swash is pretty much unbreakable and you don't have to worry about fixing it all the time. Plus, it's more crisp on the cyclic. I know, I know... It's not exactly cheap but I think it's worth it for someone who plans to fly the 328 for a while.

Just my 2 cents.

Best,
Chris
Just had a few flights with the 328 now... I wanted to take a few videos but it was too dark for videos

The flybar with the paddles weigh the same now as the flybar with the bullet weights...

But I think the head speed is much faster..

I put the mixer arms to their most responsive settings today.. The FFF is very quick...quicker even than your vids or it seems Chris ..but that is subjective...I hope to get another stock xtreme flybar and test this...the problem is tho that the flybar seems too light...so coming out of a fast turn it will battle to right itself without severe aerlon in opposite lock... And I have to reduce headspeed at the same time.. Not impossible to control... But you have to be very precise or it will get away with you...in fact it's quite fun...
Now this maybe for 4 reasons...
1) The 220 blades I am using have more surface area and may not be exactly configured for this flybar weight...
2)The paddles have increased headspeed, making it harder for the flybar to compensate...
3) the paddles distribute the weight a bit more than the bullet weights so maybe more weight is needed
4) just plain the flybar is a little light in general and may need some extra weight...

I think it's a combination of all above..
But in general I am very happy with the paddle config


In terms of the swash... It certainly helps with durability..crispness AND also has a bigger range of movement and consistency of movement,,,nth is is what actually helps with the left turns (combined with the flybar)...

I think it's an expensive buy, but worth it in the end... If u buy one part other than the flybar I think it should be the swash...
Closely following that would be the mixing arms, then head, then anti rotation clip,,, in that order
ArchillesElbow is offline Find More Posts by ArchillesElbow
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion will Solo pro V2 RTF TX work on Solo PRO 328 andione1983 Micro Helis 0 Feb 05, 2012 08:12 PM
Discussion Solo Pro 328 parts??? pabmadi Micro Helis 2 Oct 11, 2011 10:23 PM
Sold Solo Pro 328 (price reduced 80$ shipped anywhere) bobepine Aircraft - Electric - Helis (FS/W) 10 Sep 29, 2011 10:56 AM