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Old Jun 12, 2012, 01:31 AM
Launch high. Fly low.
United States, CA, Lake Elsinore
Joined Aug 2003
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I usually get my timer just before the round...
I'm definitely all for random timers. Let's push it further-- Pilots just fly, timers just time-- no calling or helping. Timers just call for safety and clicking the stopwatch!

Jun

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFalken View Post
I am qualified. I have a pilot lined up to team with. Teaming happens at every contest I have attended. Not protected but definitely orchestrated. Timers matter. If people are adamant about timers not being important than step up and call for a totally random timing matrix too. Do that with a completely open entry to make everyone happy. So what say you? No gaggle of top competitors working together. No qualifying, everyone is in at all skill levels and no picking a timer, one will be assigned. Yea, that is the ticket. Let's pole that, I think it would be interesting.

I have been looking forward to competing in my first team selection. I was pleased to be able to qualify by the rules. This level of acidic conversation is making me question the effort.
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 02:35 AM
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San Diego
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Joe,

Out of curiosity, how many people did you have at the NZ team selection? How many of them did you know? How many have you worked with at least once at some point or another?

Also out of curiosity, if you were to fly in the US team selection, who is on your short list of people you would team with to implement your score suppression scheme? I live here and I couldn't tell you who I think is the most likely guy to win the most rounds. There are a lot of great F3K pilots in this country and many of them are still developing at a rapid pace. A lot of these guys with the right coaching and a bit more experience could be ready to perform well at the World Championship level as soon as next year. My point is, that with the depth of talent currently in the US, I don't see planned score suppression as being a realistic tactic, especially since you left the country. For score suppression to work, you need as many 1000 point rounds as possible. If you look at the last team selection, not surprisingly, Paul Anderson had the most with 15 out of 26 1000 point rounds. I had the next highest with 11 out of 26. Which is surprising, even to me - I certainly wouldn't have picked myself if I was trying to orchestrate a score suppression scheme. The depth of team worthy talent has probably doubled in the US since the last team selection. In my opinion, trying to manipulate 2 man team protection in the field of current pilots in the US to gain any perceivable score advantage would be a monumental task with a high probability of failure.

Tom
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcats View Post
I usually get my timer just before the round...
I'm definitely all for random timers. Let's push it further-- Pilots just fly, timers just time-- no calling or helping. Timers just call for safety and clicking the stopwatch!

Jun
Jun,

As much as I like the idea and actually talked about the same thing with Josh Glaab probably 20 or so years ago, it is not the game we currently play. Even if it was, you still need a timer that can precisely start and stop the watch as well as read the times correctly. . .
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 06:20 AM
Father of Fr3aK, DLG Pilot
tom43004's Avatar
USA, OH, Worthington
Joined May 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFalken View Post
This level of acidic conversation is making me question the effort.
That's exactly what I'm afraid of when I see a discussion like this. I'm certain that any questions will be gone when you step on the grass in Colorado though.

Jun,

I heard the grumblings at the last TS that you reference. Anybody who was at Wilson knows that you deserved to be on that team.

I would have to reiterate one of Joe's points about the whole thing: It's the responsibility of the CD to set up the matrix in a way that makes team protection irrelevant. This means doublechecking the randomness of the matrix, running alot of rounds, etc.
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 08:28 AM
Turn down for what?
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United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryO View Post
It's probable, that in spite of the polls, nothing will change.
To be completely fair Tom and the team selection committee have been very open to opinions, people's situations, and open to change on quite a lot of things regarding the F3K team selection process.

Ryan
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 08:46 AM
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As the TS CD, I'm certainly hoping we all move past this soon. The rules have been set for this cycle, and, as big kids do, we need to accept that and move on. Lets change the focus to things within out control for this cycle, like picking that perfect team member for our own situations, whatever that may be... and maybe bring up discussions of how we can support the team that will be chosen this year. I still have no doubt that, even with all the "flaws" in the system this cycle, we'll still choose the best 3 pilots (plus alternate) possible to represent us at the WC. I don't think the "acidic conversations" that Jim C mentioned are moving us productively to that end.

For those that still feel the need to discuss the mechanics of the next cycle, how about we start another thread to discuss future directions, and do so in a positive way?
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 08:57 AM
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Well said Dave. There is a forum...on yahoo that is more appropriate for this. Where do we stand on number of pilots committed to come? I know, I browse the web site often, just thought we could use this thread to try to get some excitement going...
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 09:10 AM
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Current Official Count is 45 pilots qualified, and 16 have RSVP'd intentions to attend. I know more are qualified, but just haven't made it onto the official list. I also haven't yet gotten any of the official contest registrations back from AMA yet, so I can't yet start the publication of that list. Soon, I hope.
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 09:16 AM
Turn down for what?
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United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djensen View Post
I know more are qualified, but just haven't made it onto the official list.
If there are people that think they are qualified that are not on the list or if there are people who are reading this that don't know if they are qualified or wonder why they don't see their names on the list definitely send me a private message and I will investigate.


Ryan
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 09:29 AM
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USA, CO, Golden
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timer-caller

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFalken View Post
Teaming happens at every contest I have attended. Not protected but definitely orchestrated.
I agree with this part of Jim's comment, and I have posted the same thing in the past. Many pilots choose one-or-two timer/callers to team with, even before the contest. Sometimes they will collaborate on a third. This is for the purpose of having a preferred timer/helper available when your task comes up. Supposedly, they will be having a fun and trusted raporte in this manner. This of course, is not a strict Team Protection scheme in that said teammates must fly against each other at some time in the contest; that's why pilots line up alternates so that they can have a good timer.

That technique probably works best for the pilots who fly a lot of contests because the meet and know more of the DLG community. I like that system. It's the Team Protection that I think mathematically skews the outcome adversely, especially in a two man scheme. The flip side of the coin is that it can reduce the availability of experienced to be available to new comers, or pilots that don't get a chance to go to numerous contests.

On a parallel note, for Tom or others to say: with Team Protection, you are not forced to form a team. To me that is like saying: come to a knife fight, and you don't have to bring a knife if you don't want.

Once Team Protection is dictated, then it makes me feel forced to find a protected teammate, other wise I am going to be at a distinct disadvantage. Essentially all of the most talented timers/callers are going to be soaked up by the higher level pilots, thus severely diluting the talent pool.

I still cannot agree with the statements that say this is a team sport. That's nuts. This is an individual sport, where we sometime add scores of pilots together to come up with a concept of a group being able to claim a win. Is Golf a team sport; NO. Is Chess a team sport, NO. Is the 100 meter dash a team sport, NO.

F3K is an individual sport. In my opinion the tasks and equipment are very different from 3 meter planes (especially where they have towing teams and landing points).

Should we allow pilots and timers to team up to call for each other, YES. But to "protect" them so that they will not fly against each other during a contest ruins the dynamic of man-on-man competition.

I have read and listened intently to every position that has been stated on RCG, and on Yahoo, and in personal email and phone calls. I want to lean and understand. There have been many excellent points and ideas made from all corners to make me reason to the limits of my ability. My conclusion at this point is that Team Protection is not appropriate for F3K. For F3J &F3B, yes. F3K, not.

I believe that we should be free to choose timer/caller to hook up with, but not be "protected" as an official Team.

I also enthusiastically agree with what Dave Jensen said about about moving on to the positive aspects of getting ready for the upcoming contest. I only made my above comment because this subject has spilled over here from Yahoo. Not many pilots follow Yahoo, but it is the official thread. If these argumentative subjects need to be continue, then indeed someone should start a different thread.

I hope that everyone can be in the spirit of..........let's fly and have fun for TS 2012.
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 09:43 AM
Turn down for what?
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United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Launch-1 View Post
I still cannot agree with the statements that say this is a team sport. That's nuts. This is an individual sport, where we sometime add scores of pilots together to come up with a concept of a group being able to claim a win. Is Golf a team sport; NO.
I think your opinion would be different if you attended a world or continental championship.

Golf isn't a team sport but the Ryder cup is. The US open isn't a team sport. ECHLGF isn't a team sport, I agree that is an individual sport. A world champs of any event type definitely is a team sport. It isn't just adding up scores.



Ryan
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 12:14 PM
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A Request

Please Gentlemen, let's use this particular thread to support and/or enhance the opportunity to fly in the TS.

The flying field in Denver offers lots of sky and land to push the envelope of your skills. The soaring club in Denver is one of the largest and most active soaring clubs in the country (at least that I know of), so we here at RMSA should have plenty of help with volunteers and organizers to host a great event.

I do believe in the spirit of exchanging ideas and appreciate the variety of open forums to express ourselves. There is lots of spirited F3K discussion happening, especailly on the Yahoo Groups. Some of the comments can get a bit "edgey", and the
"one upman-ship" seems to be never ending. I'm asking that we don't use this particular thread to do any further debate on hot issues.

Please feel free to start a different thread, or to use the Yahoo Group, where the RC Soaring Committee accesses to take surveys, comments, etc. If any of the present issues have become devisive, I regret that. Hopefully, time will be a great healer and we can all be focused on the intent of the TS being the time/place where we will identify the next Team USA that will win lots of medals.

Cheers to all................as Hank Williams Jr. would say.............I'm looking forward to seeing all of my Rowdy Friends.

Dave R.
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 04:17 PM
turn, turn, turn.
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How many juniors have qualified, and how many have registered?
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 04:23 PM
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USA, CO, Littleton
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I don't know how many have qualified, but none have yet registered.
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 04:58 PM
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United States, CA, Castro Valley
Joined Apr 2007
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Let the data speak

We can go on all day about the pros and cons of team protection but if one is going to make a "testable" statement, then it should be tested. We have data from The Bruce which is a highly competitive contest and has team protection. One statistic we can use to see if team protection has an effect on final standings is to first caclculate the ratio of team pairings in the top ten, for example, to the total number of teams. Compare this then to the ratio of all hypothetical pairings in the top ten to the total of all hypothetical pairings. I can see there will be a bias in favor of the empirical statistic because pilots of like skill often pair together, and therefore the top pilots have likely paired with each other and be in the top ten. Also, we have limited data and our results will not be very robust. Nevertheless, we should carry out the method.

This is still a young thought in my head and I haven't thought it through completely but I wanted to get it out there if anyone wants to run with it. I am out of the country (and a little tipsy right now) for another week and have only my iPhone so I am a bit hindered to carry out the data collection.

Anybody else have any ideas of investigating the effects of team protection given the contest data we already have?

By the way, Jun, I don't think your pairing with Paul helped you anymore than it helped Paul to pair with YOU. Don't listen to that hogwash. Paul should be getting the same "grief" since he finished at the top but never had to fly against you. Would anyone say Paul didnt earn it either? Of course not. Just like no one has justification to say that about you. People are not very rational at times. You are both top pilots and I was not at all surprised to see both of you at the top of the list. The contest was very difficult from all the accounts I heard and being "protected" from ONE contestant, I feel, will not affect the final standings appreciably (especially owing to the number of heats and rounds that were flown at the TS). That is another hypothesis that should be tested. You earned your ticket to the WC and I was very happy to have you as our representative. You are awesome!
Paul

PS: I voted for team protection because I feel a pilot's performance is highly dependent on his/her timer and team protection allows for a dedicated timer. Additionally, I feel protection from ONE contestant does not significantly affect the final standings but this still needs to be tested. In Tom Kiesling's defense, I think he makes many good points and the only argument I hear is that protection from ONE pilot affects the final standings. I am not yet convinced of this but I have no shame I changing my mind if I see a reason to change. Let the data speak!
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