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Old Apr 24, 2012, 03:22 AM
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Blade should go little deeper in wing IMHO. I go and cut a notch in tip, 1/8-3/16" deep and wide as blade is so no parts of T extends outside wing planform but it sits right on edge.
Seba
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Old Apr 24, 2012, 07:32 AM
Craig B
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United States, TN, Knoxville
Joined Mar 2009
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Hi Seba,
Although it might not look that way in the photograph, the peg is actually flush with the wingtip. I also measured the overall span of the wing and it conforms to F3k rules. The max span is at the hinge line, but the peg is a bit infront of that on the radius.
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Old Apr 24, 2012, 12:41 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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Joined Aug 2005
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I think what Seba is trying to say is that if the span of the wings is exactly 1.5M and the T blade is forms a right angle, the bottom of the T Blade has to kick out beyond the tip of the wing. This would put it beyond the allowable wingspan.

Take the measurement from the widest parts of the wing, the tip without the throwing peg and the bottom of the throwing peg and I would surmise that it is not legal.


You can see in the photo, that the bottom does kick out rather far.

Could you take a top view with the wing upside down on a flat surface? Then, we might be able to see if it extends beyond the tip.

Frank
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Old Apr 24, 2012, 02:14 PM
Craig B
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Hi Frank, good points.... The T blade itself is not 90 degrees though... Also, the other wing tip is flat on the table in the image. In any case, I measured it and it's 59" both ways... The blade is perpendicular to the line falling on both wing tip points. I assume this is why Seba made the blade like that.
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Old Apr 24, 2012, 05:10 PM
Craig B
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I was thinking about Franks comment more and had another look at the peg when I got home. It seems that I test fitted and measure the peg upside down from how it is installed now. So, the result is as Frank suspected. It's about 1/8" over spec on the bottom of the peg. So, I brushed it with a pen torch and bent the bottom of the peg inboard enough to fall within spec. I thought this would be much easier than trying to re-install the peg. Thanks for catching that Frank!

On another note, it's kind of difficult to weigh the whole model on my scale because the scale is so small, but it seems that AUW balanced at 60% of chord is about 10oz... I was super heavy on the wing joint. I should have used more balloons! I guess I wasn't thinking clearly as my life is a bit of pandemonium with my 17month old son running around. Hopefully, I can get out for a maiden soon!

Seba,
can you post your recommended CG starting point for the benefit of readers?
Thanks!
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 08:24 PM
Craig B
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I did just a few flights today just to get it balanced and trimmed... at this point, I have it at about 78-79mm.. It will take quite a bit of getting used to flying without a rudder, and i'll need to play with the program more to optimize for this setup. I will say that my mistake of installing the peg upside down has proven to be quite uncomfortable. I might have to do some work there..

Wind was about 10mph with gusts to 15... It launches quite high and can really go fast... There was a lot of sink, and the lift seemed to be in narrow plumes and bubbles... I really felt that the fixed vertical stab was working against me, particularly when I was trying to get out of sink... Perhaps I need more nose weight so the tail won't drag as much?? I think I just need more stick time flying without a rudder to be able to comment with detail... As soon as I can, I will do a few side by side comparison flights with my B3's... So far, I can tell this one will do better in winds over 15mph... With some tuning and perhaps work on the peg, I feel that it could launch higher than my ST B3 with swindell vertical. More later...
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 08:31 PM
Team Hong Kong F3K
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Hong Kong
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I've been flying a couple wings using this wing design for a couple months, I settled down on 68mm empty, and 66 with 2oz of ballast.
I fly rudderless as well, and I use reverse differential. Approx. 15% less up than down from memory. Play with the differential a whole bunch using increments of 10% and you'll get it to turn nicely.
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 08:32 PM
Father of Fr3aK, DLG Pilot
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My personal experience...

flying without a rudder is different. You have to lead the airplane more, and some factors come into play...

Wind is tougher, particularly if you're trying to fly smooth, open circles. In wind especially without a rudder, you have to roll into the turns with more authority and keep the bank angle in.

Weight is important. Lighter is always an advantage, but that advantage is multiplied without a rudder. Weight in the extremeties (tips and tails) is an absolute killer without a rudder since you have more inertia to overcome to enter turns, and one fewer control surface.

CG is critical. You generally will find that a more aft CG will help you enter and exit turns without a rudder. Moving the CG forward sometimes negatively affects the ability to enter and exit turns. I like my Blasters about 78-79mm with a rudder. Without, they have to be at 82-83.

Give it some time. You'll learn to like certain things and deal with the others.
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Old Apr 27, 2012, 10:20 PM
Craig B
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I got out a little bit more today with Thomas & Tom's recommended reverse diff setting... amazingly enough, it actually seemed to help... conditions were similar to the previous day... I was able to get up and out many times... But I was trying to focus on how this model handles in situations where i'm looking for a save...

I kind of sense that maybe the vertical stab is too big??? When not going directly into the wind, it seems to fight a bit... Maybe this is what Tom described as one of the tough parts of rudderless flying.. I've been messing around with camber and CG settings, but haven't had enough stick time yet to find my favorite spot.. It seems like the model likes camber more, the more forward the CG setting.. not sure if this is a characteristic typical of most other models or if I am misreading things..

I would like to also say that I have given it as hard of a launch as I could muster up and the model feels so solid the whole way through... no wag, just solid transfer of energy... it feels like the boom doesn't flex much at all. . I am not sure if that is helping or hurting launch height though...
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Old Apr 27, 2012, 11:56 PM
Aurora Builder
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Thomas and Tom, and Craig for asking the original question, thank you. The above last three posts have summed up more on rudderless DLG flying than the rest of rcgroups combined!

My 2 cents: I flew Tom's Rudderless Fr3aK for a while after a contest. I will immediately state that this was the first time flying the plane, really the first time flying rudderless, and I have no idea how the plane was setup. Other than the fact that Tom set it up and I trust his stuff, it was straightforward. The conditions were nasty. Very nasty. Like leave planes on the ground, do not pass go, go directly to jail nasty. The Fr3aK handled the conditions well, but lack of rudder was rather noticeable. Coming from a rudder'd ship, it was tough to make turns in the breezy, small thermal conditions. More time with the setup was likely needed to get used to it. I will say I was surprised by the available control response on landing, where I usually MUST have a rudder in such conditions. I can certainly see the appeal of rudderless setups in light air but will continue building my planes with a rudder until I see every pilot in the top 3 flying rudderless across there ships.
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Old May 05, 2012, 11:18 PM
Craig B
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I have a how-high on the way to me, so I will post results and B3 results for comparison as soon as I can...

So far, this model seems to indicate that it should only be pulled out if wind is over about 13-14mph.. otherwise, I prefer B3. I am 90% sure I will uninstall pushrod and run pull/spring to get the weight down..
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Old May 06, 2012, 08:03 AM
Father of Fr3aK, DLG Pilot
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Craig,

The Zone-V2 takes some getting used to. This and the Blaster are on polar opposite ends of the spectrum as far as DLG goes. The Blaster is a forgiving airplane. It can be flown very competitively with the CG in a wide range, and it is very tolerant of being flown too slowly or too fast. The Blaster is a right stick airplane, meaning you can do alot of good with it without ever touching the rudder (if you have one) or the camber slider. The Zone-V2 requires more attention, especially in camber.

My suggestion without having seen this fly for you is this... go back out and dial about 1/8" more camber into the airplane than you think it should have. Even though it looks rediculous, spend a whole battery flying it in this configuration and work the elevator trim so that it flies at a normal speed. Obviously don't mess with your "launch" or speed modes... just thermal mode. This airfoil likes camber, and when you're pushing 300g as you probably are with this ship it likes an INSANE amount of camber. Use too much to see what too much is. You'll probably find that you've been zipping around in somewhat of a speed mode and the performance just isn't there.

If you need some light tails look me up. They'll make a huge difference.
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Old May 07, 2012, 01:33 AM
Craig B
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom43004 View Post
Craig,

The Zone-V2 takes some getting used to. This and the Blaster are on polar opposite ends of the spectrum as far as DLG goes. The Blaster is a forgiving airplane. It can be flown very competitively with the CG in a wide range, and it is very tolerant of being flown too slowly or too fast. The Blaster is a right stick airplane, meaning you can do alot of good with it without ever touching the rudder (if you have one) or the camber slider. The Zone-V2 requires more attention, especially in camber.

My suggestion without having seen this fly for you is this... go back out and dial about 1/8" more camber into the airplane than you think it should have. Even though it looks rediculous, spend a whole battery flying it in this configuration and work the elevator trim so that it flies at a normal speed. Obviously don't mess with your "launch" or speed modes... just thermal mode. This airfoil likes camber, and when you're pushing 300g as you probably are with this ship it likes an INSANE amount of camber. Use too much to see what too much is. You'll probably find that you've been zipping around in somewhat of a speed mode and the performance just isn't there.

If you need some light tails look me up. They'll make a huge difference.

Hi Tom,
you're absolutely right. I have been fiddling with camber and read in one of your older posts that zone likes lots of camber... I will go back out and mess with camber some more... It is possible that I was mislead when trying to dial this one in because I was loosing a lot of control authority when trying to make it fly slow, but that might be fixed with other settings like differential and throw/expo settings in thermal mode. I recall you mentioned that the zone2 doesn't like weight, and that seems to be a factor for me now. I have a set of swindells laying around, but I sincerely wanted to get the best performance out of Seba's kit before bastardizing this model. I am interested in your tails though, so we'll get together at the bruce on that... I will need a pylon too..

I'm in Asia all week, so no more testing until next week, but can you please let me know what your current camber settings are for the Fr3ak as an approximate starting point to mess around with? obviously best setting for this one would be different due to weight and the slightly different planform.
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Old May 07, 2012, 07:21 AM
Father of Fr3aK, DLG Pilot
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When I flew the prototype at 310g, I was carrying about 2mm in cruise and 6-7mm in thermal camber. My current models are about 1mm in cruise and 5mm in thermal, varies by day...
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Old May 07, 2012, 07:29 AM
G_T
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In general, losing control authority is a sign that a plane is being flown too slowly for the camber setting, weight, and conditions. Just FYI.

Gerald
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