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Old Dec 12, 2012, 08:09 AM
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I was under the impression from comments elsewhere that those problems had been resolved and the people who had received faulty ones had replacements sent to them free of charge.

just a guess but maybe they are using those same orange tx modules in the 9XR
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 08:12 AM
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The fault wasn't about the GUID issue, but channel 2 decoding.
The GUID issue (and button) is still there in replacements, will see if in 9XR too.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 08:33 AM
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and that could be a biiiig problem..
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 08:46 AM
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I've read a lot about that so called GUID "problem" and it seems to be a load of hype stirred up by the anti-Hobbyking fraternity.

The button was placed on the Tx because Spektrum won't release their GUID codes to other producers. As a consequence there is a extremely small chance that an Orange Tx might be using the same GUID as a Spektrum one. If this happens the user has the option to press the button to get a new GUID. If you look at the numbers the chances of that happening are so small its not worth worrying about and arguably a waste of effort to install the button in the first place.

Funnily the risk of a GUID clash is just as high for Spektrum but the fraternity isn't interested in trying to bad mouth Spektrum because they serve a different clientele.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jhsa View Post
I wonder if this tx with dsm will have the same GUID problems that the orange tx apears to have..
There is no proof there is a problem.

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Originally Posted by tignmeg View Post
The button was placed on the Tx because Spektrum won't release their GUID codes to other producers.
There is no proof of that either.

All there is is a Change ID button, and info from the hardcore DSM hackers that the GUID-to-DSMX-hopping-sequence relation isn't known to the general public yet, meaning that the only known way for HK to make a working DSMX transmitter is to copy a working genuine radio (and its GUID).
If they've done it, it's potentially bad because they wouldn't have bought thousands of Spektrum radios to copy them. Maybe they haven't, nobody knows.

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Funnily the risk of a GUID clash is just as high for Spektrum
In DSM2 mode yes, the above suggests it's not the case in DSMX mode.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 09:08 AM
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Funnily the risk of a GUID clash is just as high for Spektrum but the fraternity isn't interested in trying to bad mouth Spektrum because they serve a different clientele.
I do not want to fight and I am most certainly not anti anything. I am just curious.
How can there be a possible ID conflict between original Spektrum transmitters? I thought they were initialized with unique ID's when they were produced.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 09:19 AM
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All there is is a Change ID button, and info from the hardcore DSM hackers that the GUID-to-DSMX-hopping-sequence relation isn't known to the general public yet, meaning that the only known way for HK to make a working DSMX transmitter is to copy a working genuine radio (and its GUID).
If they've done it, it's potentially bad because they wouldn't have bought thousands of Spektrum radios to copy them. Maybe they haven't, nobody knows.
It is extremely unlikely that HK have simply copied the software. It is far more likely that they have generated their own code that is compatible with the DSMX protocol.

Some simple stats....
I believe the GUID is a 32 bit code. That being the case there is over 4 billion codes. Simply put that would mean that you would need to put 100,000 fliers in the field at one time using the same technology and you would have to do that 40,000 times to have a reasonable chance of having a clash.
And even if you managed that you would have to have them bind their radios all at the same time because that is when the GUID is used to lock the receiver with the transmitter.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 09:23 AM
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I do not want to fight and I am most certainly not anti anything. I am just curious.
How can there be a possible ID conflict between original Spektrum transmitters? I thought they were initialized with unique ID's when they were produced.
You are correct. The so called problem arises when another manufacturer (ie HK) comes along and starts producing DSMX transmitters as well. Because Spektrum won't tell them what GUID they have used there is no way that HK can avoid the chance of making a Tx with the same GUID as a Spektrum produced TX
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 09:50 AM
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All there is is a Change ID button, and info from the hardcore DSM hackers that the GUID-to-DSMX-hopping-sequence relation isn't known to the general public yet, meaning that the only known way for HK to make a working DSMX transmitter is to copy a working genuine radio (and its GUID).
If they've done it, it's potentially bad because they wouldn't have bought thousands of Spektrum radios to copy them. Maybe they haven't, nobody knows.
Sounds reasonable, more reasonable than simple GUID collision.

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I believe the GUID is a 32 bit code. That being the case there is over 4 billion codes. Simply put that would mean that you would need to put 100,000 fliers in the field at one time using the same technology and you would have to do that 40,000 times to have a reasonable chance of having a clash.
Well GUID is way bigger - 128 bit, but I saw somewhere that some bits are static, so not all bits are used in defining uniqueness.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:08 AM
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It is extremely unlikely that HK have simply copied the software. It is far more likely that they have generated their own code that is compatible with the DSMX protocol.
Of course they have rewritten something, there's nothing out there they could copy 1:1.

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I believe the GUID is a 32 bit code. That being the case there is over 4 billion codes. Simply put that would mean that you would need to put 100,000 fliers in the field at one time using the same technology and you would have to do that 40,000 times to have a reasonable chance of having a clash.
You apparently haven't read or understood the DSMX hacking thread.

The point is, when you bind a DSMX receiver to a DSMX transmitter, the receiver gets the transmitter's ID. It then uses this ID to generate a channel hopping pattern, which it will use to "follow" the transmitter's hopping.
The transmitter thus has to use the same pattern. The problem is, how to deduct the hopping pattern from the ID (like the receiver does) isn't known, so we can't just take a random ID and expect correct operation with a DSMX receiver because we couldn't send on the right channels the receiver is listening to.

The only known working method to make a DSMX transmitter that will be recognised correctly by a receiver is to take a genuine DSMX radio and receiver, tap into a DSMX receiver's RF chip interface, capture the radio's ID and read the hopping pattern by looking at what frequencies the receiver is listening to. This gives a valid ID/pattern set. Now you can replicate that in your transmitter's firmware.

This is why it's been speculated HK simply sniffed a certain, finite number of genuine Spektrum radios to extract valid ID/pattern pairs, hardcoded that into the Orange module, and added a "Change ID" button to cycle through the few hardcoded sets.
The problem would theoretically only affect DSMX, as DSM2 doesn't hop, so no such problem. It would also only be of a concern to multiple users of Orange modules at the same field - not users of genuine Spektrum gear.
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Last edited by Kilrah; Dec 12, 2012 at 11:15 AM.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:14 PM
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For those who want to customize their radios, there are several DIY hydrographics (dip kits) available now with all sorts of pattern choices.

Check out these places.

www.camodipkit.com

Now you can have that burled walnut woodgrain, purple flowers, diamond plate etc., radio you always wanted.

Sorry for DBL post, but I thought it should be separate.
AWESOME.... Just bought a kit from them.....
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilrah View Post
Of course they have rewritten something, there's nothing out there they could copy 1:1.



You apparently haven't read or understood the DSMX hacking thread.

The point is, when you bind a DSMX receiver to a DSMX transmitter, the receiver gets the transmitter's ID. It then uses this ID to generate a channel hopping pattern, which it will use to "follow" the transmitter's hopping.
The transmitter thus has to use the same pattern. The problem is, how to deduct the hopping pattern from the ID (like the receiver does) isn't known, so we can't just take a random ID and expect correct operation with a DSMX receiver because we couldn't send on the right channels the receiver is listening to.

The only known working method to make a DSMX transmitter that will be recognised correctly by a receiver is to take a genuine DSMX radio and receiver, tap into a DSMX receiver's RF chip interface, capture the radio's ID and read the hopping pattern by looking at what frequencies the receiver is listening to. This gives a valid ID/pattern set. Now you can replicate that in your transmitter's firmware.

This is why it's been speculated HK simply sniffed a certain, finite number of genuine Spektrum radios to extract valid ID/pattern pairs, hardcoded that into the Orange module, and added a "Change ID" button to cycle through the few hardcoded sets.
The problem would theoretically only affect DSMX, as DSM2 doesn't hop, so no such problem. It would also only be of a concern to multiple users of Orange modules at the same field - not users of genuine Spektrum gear.
You assume wrong sorry.

The speculation that just because the group of hackers haven't been able to decode how the DSMX frequency hopping is linked to the GUID means that HK haven't is a huge jump in faith (or lack of).

Sure my speculation that the guys at HK are further down the track is also an assumption but that DSMX hacking thread has only run for a few weeks HK I'm sure have spent a lot longer figuring out how to make DSMX work.

HK say their orange transmitter modules are DSMX compatible. If HK had just copied a few valid ID/pattern pairs from some Spektrum radios and put those into their compatible DSMX transmitters then they wouldn't be compatible because they would not bind with existing DSMX (Spektrum) receivers. There is not currently an Orange DSMX receiver for sale so its fair to say that the Orange DSMX transmitter module has been made to bind with the Spektrum receivers.

To make a compatible DSMX transmitter HK don't need thousands of Spektrum DSMX transmitters. All they need to do is get a single Spektrum DSMX receiver and send it thousands of GUID's and note down what the frequency hopping is. So yes Spektrum users are also at "risk" because their GUID could have been duplicated in the Orange transmitter modules.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by tignmeg View Post

As a consequence there is a extremely small chance that an Orange Tx might be using the same GUID as a Spektrum one. If this happens the user has the option to press the button to get a new GUID.
If he has to press the button it's probably too late already..

Quote:
If you look at the numbers the chances of that happening are so small its not worth worrying about and arguably a waste of effort to install the button in the first place.

Funnily the risk of a GUID clash is just as high for Spektrum but the fraternity isn't interested in trying to bad mouth Spektrum because they serve a different clientele.
Would you fly your expensive model knowing that there is a possibility of someone at your field using a module that could have the same GUID as yours, and might turn it on when you're in the air??
I know I wouldn't


I think no one is trying to bad mouth anyone.. Personally, I don't like spektrum. I think it is not reliable enough. I have two 9x radios with custom firmware and I love them but I also don't use the original RF modules..
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 06:27 PM
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All they need to do is get a single Spektrum DSMX receiver and send it thousands of GUID's and note down what the frequency hopping is. So yes Spektrum users are also at "risk" because their GUID could have been duplicated in the Orange transmitter modules.
Hmmmm, That sounds very safe and also it sounds like something we all should be proud of...
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 06:29 PM
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Well, if HK copied and hardcoded one GUID/hopping pattern then that module will bind and work perfectly with a genuine Spektrum DSMX receiver.

The point that there are no Orange DSMX receivers tells me that they were not able to figure out the hopping pattern based on a transmitter's GUID.
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