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Old Apr 17, 2012, 07:14 PM
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This was the test I did...


http://youtu.be/rQgy0BQ5iA4
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 07:21 PM
Mtz
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I already said: more grass, more motion vectors. Clear sky or just few clouds, much less motion vectors.
If panning from grass to some tree (with many leafs) the difference is not so big. So the test are goods if using some scenes with so many objects like the blades of grass compared with a clear sky.

enjoy,
Mtz
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 07:23 PM
Tri-Quad-Hexa-Octo-copters!!
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Hi Tom,
EDIT:: OK Gents this is weird. The file I uploaded to Vimeo plays perfectly there and it freezes every time I play it on the first pan to the sky on my PC. Any ideas??? It is likely the Vimeo rendering process provided some frame error fix.
EDIT 2: I found that I could get the "corrupted" .avi file to also run on my PC if I used DivXFix++ 0.34 http://www.videohelp.com/tools/DivFixPP It fixed it by skipping 8 bytes and found 93 errors in this short video with slow shade to sky panning. So panning to sky from shade seems to cause it to write some corrupted frames...However this obviously is not a perfect solution, so hopefully the developer will get this fixed. Until then I can't recommend this camera for on-board recorded video. The A/V out as has been mentioned does not lock up, so that is still a possible use...
Well now after 32 files I got several videos in a row to freeze. All froze up while slow-panning from shade to clear blue sky just as you said. I guess blue is not its favorite color I was able to duplicate this a couple of times with your slow panning method. If I panned like my previous "Blair Witch Project" style of test it did not freeze. So that combination as you specifically said does lock my #18 camera up too. It seems to record the expected file size though, so that is odd. No static. The audio just freezes too. Hope they fix that;( I will do a test flight next to see if that randomness can keep it from freezing.


keyfob camera #18 test shade to blue sky freezes (0 min 46 sec)

Cheers,
Jim
Quadrocopter and Tricopter Info Mega Link Index

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
...it does not duplicate the test like I showed in the recently posted sample. Corruption is triggered by a slower, methodical sweep of the camera from the ground to into a clear bright sky with nothing else in the scene. Scenes with just partial sky coming through the trees is not likely going to trigger it. I suspect this is why only a couple of us have managed to do it so far.

I hope yours does NOT do it under similar test procedure like I posted in post #146 titled Corruption Test Procedure!
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 08:03 PM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtz View Post
I already said: more grass, more motion vectors. Clear sky or just few clouds, much less motion vectors.
If panning from grass to some tree (with many leafs) the difference is not so big. So the test are goods if using some scenes with so many objects like the blades of grass compared with a clear sky.

enjoy,
Mtz
If it were only that, then panning to any blank screen should do it. I'll test that some more, but I think there is more to it than that. The sky is FULL of wavelengths (both infrared and ultraviolet) our eyes cannot see, but the CMOS can. E.g., it can see the IR from a TV remote which our eyes cannot. Whatever the camera is doing to adjust for the exposure, white balance, etc. might also come into play. I can also trigger this indoors by going from a dark black environment and suddenly hitting the lens with a steady bright LED flash light. There hardly any detail or motion in that scenario, but definitely changes in the light level and output from the CMOS.

I'm leaving the resolution to the developer and his IC chip supplier's tech reps. I know have confirmed my expectation that it is not just my camera that is susceptible to this. Thanks to those who took the time to do the test.
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 08:42 PM
Mtz
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In the screenshot from my PC there is the bitrate for every file:
20 means 20000 kbps
90 means 90000 kbps

Inside are the same thousands flying birds test which was freezing almost all HD media players when appeared on the market.
Testing players was made using same problematic file at different bitrates. After some tests user reported for example the bird38.mkv is not freezing the player, but the bird42.mkv will freeze. So even the image was so complex, also the bitrate had its contribution.

This is why I am telling you to ask developer to send you for example 5 firmwares with different bitrate settings from 500kbps like this for example:
7000kbps firmware
6500kbps firmware
6000kbps firmware
5500kbps firmware
5000kbps firmware

You will test if the problem is still there and if found at least one firmware which is not freezing the camera, people to use that firmware until (if) they will solve the problem.
I think this is the easy way for them for now and lower bitrate in aerial photography is not so important compared to the bug.

enjoy,
Mtz

Offtopic PS: today almost all players have no problems with the bird test. One of the first players without this problem was WDTV.
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 10:01 PM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,877 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtz View Post
In the screenshot from my PC there is the bitrate for every file:
20 means 20000 kbps
90 means 90000 kbps

Inside are the same thousands flying birds test which was freezing almost all HD media players when appeared on the market.
Testing players was made using same problematic file at different bitrates. After some tests user reported for example the bird38.mkv is not freezing the player, but the bird42.mkv will freeze. So even the image was so complex, also the bitrate had its contribution.

This is why I am telling you to ask developer to send you for example 5 firmwares with different bitrate settings from 500kbps like this for example:
7000kbps firmware
6500kbps firmware
6000kbps firmware
5500kbps firmware
5000kbps firmware

You will test if the problem is still there and if found at least one firmware which is not freezing the camera, people to use that firmware until (if) they will solve the problem.
I think this is the easy way for them for now and lower bitrate in aerial photography is not so important compared to the bug.

enjoy,
Mtz

Offtopic PS: today almost all players have no problems with the bird test. One of the first players without this problem was WDTV.
The #16 HAS NO PROBLEMS with AVERAGE bit rates of 7000kbps or 10000kbps, and the instantaneous bit rates are variable going well into the lower 20000kbps rates on complex scenes. The GPUs doing all the video processing and encoding are the same in the #11, #16, and #18 cameras, and I believe the CMOS modules are also identical. I do believe that the problem originates in the GPU processing and appears to be codec related, but I don't adhere to your conclusion that it's simply because the bit rate is too high at it's current setting. If it can be fixed in the #16 (and it was) with other firmware tweaksn ot bit rate reduction, it should be fixable in the #18, UNLESS the simultaneous composite AV Out function changes the whole ball game. That's for the developer to figure out. problem based on the above.

As I said, I do not tell the developer what to do or what to send me. And quite honestly, I don't want to be doing tests like you describe, which they can and should be doing themselves before they send out new firmware for beta testing. I've gotten a lot of firmware which is supposed to have corrected a problem, but doesn't once I test it. This can and should be done in-house by the developer. I don't get paid for testing, and only want to test firmware that has been tested before being sent, appears to have fixed a problem, and just needs additional confirmation by an outside source before being released to the masses.
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 10:15 PM
Mtz
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If they can't reproduce the problem they need a beta tester.

Things like writing with caps and almost always my ideas seems to be bad are telling me that I need to take a break even if I was in the firmwares and video "world" for more than 5 years and testing hundreds of firmwares. Maybe I am too old for this and lost my skills.

enjoy,
Mtz
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 11:35 PM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,877 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtz View Post
If they can't reproduce the problem they need a beta tester.

Things like writing with caps and almost always my ideas seems to be bad are telling me that I need to take a break even if I was in the firmwares and video "world" for more than 5 years and testing hundreds of firmwares. Maybe I am too old for this and lost my skills.

enjoy,
Mtz
They have a beta tester, but I nominate you to be one.

I didn't say your suggestions are bad... I said I don't agree with the main premise that the bit rate is the root cause (for the reasons I stated). I don't have any direct communication with the developer of this camera like I do with the #16. All my communication is with one of the eBay sellers who works closely with the developer. You can also communicate with them via this path, same as I can, and give them your instructions directly.... I might screw them up since I can't explain why it should solve their problem when their other camera (#11) running the same video processing chips can record at the same bit rate with the same video codec and it doesn't need to throttle back the bit rate to prevent file corruption. You can then have them send you the numerous firmwares compiled with different bit rates and do the testing.
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Old Apr 18, 2012, 03:52 AM
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Joined Nov 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtz View Post
If they can't reproduce the problem they need a beta tester.

Things like writing with caps and almost always my ideas seems to be bad are telling me that I need to take a break even if I was in the firmwares and video "world" for more than 5 years and testing hundreds of firmwares. Maybe I am too old for this and lost my skills.

enjoy,
Mtz
This is not true. A beta tester can't possibly resolve the problem. I can tell you that the problem can only be resolved by the developer. The beta tester can only find when the problem appears, like Tom has done, and can always repeat it in a controlled environment, like Tom has also done. The rest is up to the developer, and given all the information, it should be easy for him to duplicate.

From experience I know only too well how difficult it is to find bugs, but this bug is served to the developer on a golden platter. I expect the #18 also has the possibility of outputting debug information in the form of serial data, so this should also help in finding the bug. However, if the bug is in a library to which the developer has no access to the code, then there's a problem, and only the author of the library can help. But the #16 developer solved the same problem...

Playing back video is totally different than recording video, so I too, don't believe the bitrate setting, as you define it, has anything to do with this issue. I know the exact effect because I could also reproduce it in the early #16 firmware very easily.

I can much more imagine empeabee's explanation, where the fast changing input data from the CMOS "chokes" a function (routine) and by making repetitive calls to itself or other functions, the code either performs an infinite loop or the stack overflows. This is a pretty common problem in the "normal" programming world - at least it's happened to me quite a few times when I was sloppy
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Old Apr 18, 2012, 08:41 AM
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Joined Nov 2011
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I maidened my Skywalker last night and used the #18 as an onboard camera.

View the test video below.

Onboard the Skywalker - Maiden Test Flight (3 min 3 sec)
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Old Apr 18, 2012, 08:46 AM
Fidler & twidler
empeabee's Avatar
Cranfield U.K.
Joined Mar 2004
4,055 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtz View Post
If they can't reproduce the problem they need a beta tester.

Things like writing with caps and almost always my ideas seems to be bad are telling me that I need to take a break even if I was in the firmwares and video "world" for more than 5 years and testing hundreds of firmwares. Maybe I am too old for this and lost my skills.

enjoy,
Mtz
Mtz, I think you miss understand the term Beta Tester, because you are telling Tom exactly what to tell the developer to do to the firmware to allow you to remote debug the code. So, are you offering to take over management of testing and development, free of charge, 24 hours a day, with the firmware team reporting directly and only to you?
I doubt the developer would think this a viable option, placing themselves and their company 100% in the hands of someone they only know from some Internet postings.
Telling Tom what he must do, does not motivate him.
Demanding that Tom gets them to do this, that or the other, does not motivate him.
Watching me loose my rag with you does not motivate him iether, and I apologise to him for this outburst.
Mike
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Old Apr 18, 2012, 09:05 AM
Mtz
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Romania, PH, Ploiesti
Joined Mar 2012
552 Posts
I never asked somebody to report me some firmware development (and I read the post where Tom wrote that the #16 developer is working at some advanced features, and keep quiet). Also I never said I want to be a beta tester or to have any plans in any firmware mod. I just put some ideas here, trying to help for a camera I don't own now or maybe never.

If the producer/developer is a smart guy, only reading this topic can bring him some ideas. If reading here is no more needing for them for a beta tester or send somebody a firmware. They can test themself.

But if they care only about selling they don't need to read anywhere.
But also, we, the people reading both topics about the #16 and #18 (#11) we know which model is selling better, and I think the strongest point of the #16 is a developer reading a topic. And that developer reading is more than this #18 video out great feature, more cables for the same price like #16. If the #18 will have the same firmware features like #16 they will reduce the #16 selling. We can see after many improvements on #16 the #11 is no longer sold so good.
For me is simple: they don't want to listen, they don't want to sell, they don't want more money.

So I will not produce some ideas again because not used, so I am wasting my time to write and everybody time to read. It is more easy to read and/or ask.

enjoy,
Mtz
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Last edited by Mtz; Apr 18, 2012 at 10:57 AM. Reason: typo
Old Apr 18, 2012, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
I hadn't noticed that until after I posted the indoor clip! I shot that sequence a couple times to get what I wanted to show in the frame, and it didn't do that. I have not seen this happen outside in brighter light. Maybe I need to play back the outdoor samples again, but when I first viewed them, I saw none of this. My testing has been limited because right now the file corruption is a much worse issue. Until that gets fixed, the camera is too unreliable for my uses.
ok newbee with first post.

i just got today a 808 #11 jumbo hd and did the firmware upgrade and did some tests but then i did a light control test to see how fast it could react.
the test was simple turn on and walk outside as soon as it got to direct sunlight the picture turned into blocks and froze up then recovered and then froze up again and i am glad i had no headphones on because it output real loud white noise.
thinking it was a one off event made another video NO wrong it froze up at same light level.
i repair things for a living so was thinking maybe the TF card so swapped it with
the one out of my 808 #16 NO did not fix it.
then played swap the firmware and it still did it.
now i have two computers one for the NET and one for video editing by accident i hit the play video after inserting the TF card into the NET computer and i was pissed i made seven videos all doing the SAME thing on my video editing computer but the videos plays FINE on my NET computer.
in the end i worked out its the CODEC causing it.
i would have never figured it out if i was not using the NET computer to load the firmware files and wile i was pissed off just clicked ok .
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Old Apr 18, 2012, 09:34 AM
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Cranfield U.K.
Joined Mar 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eeprommemory View Post
ok newbee with first post.

i just got today a 808 #11 jumbo hd and did the firmware upgrade and did some tests but then i did a light control test to see how fast it could react.
the test was simple turn on and walk outside as soon as it got to direct sunlight the picture turned into blocks and froze up then recovered and then froze up again and i am glad i had no headphones on because it output real loud white noise.
thinking it was a one off event made another video NO wrong it froze up at same light level.
i repair things for a living so was thinking maybe the TF card so swapped it with
the one out of my 808 #16 NO did not fix it.
then played swap the firmware and it still did it.
now i have two computers one for the NET and one for video editing by accident i hit the play video after inserting the TF card into the NET computer and i was pissed i made seven videos all doing the SAME thing on my video editing computer but the videos plays FINE on my NET computer.
in the end i worked out its the CODEC causing it.
i would have never figured it out if i was not using the NET computer to load the firmware files and wile i was pissed off just clicked ok .
Glad you got your systems working for yourself.
I wonder if you could be so kind as to share the when where why and how with us. e.g. OS(s), machine 'type' (desktop/laptop/netbook), CODEC use for the cure.
TIA
Mike
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Old Apr 18, 2012, 10:28 AM
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Joined Apr 2012
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both pc's have XP on them.
i used VLC on both pc's.
the working pc is a compaq SR1965an (don't think the pc matters) not working one HP DC7100.
the not working one has the latest CCCP codec the one that does work has a 2 year old ver of it.
now just have to work out how to display the codec ver used by VLC
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