|Apr 05, 2012, 09:54 AM|
I am telling you, Chinese do things differently. There is a lot more information on Luxury Handbags than RC motors but I think we can assume many of the manufacturing practices are similar.
|Apr 06, 2012, 04:26 AM|
United Kingdom, Worcs
Joined Mar 2012
Different quality items made in the same factory
Hello Ranandar: Thanks very much for your very valuable and realistic contribution. -This is a very excellent point to make.
It is perfectly possible, indeed it is almost certain, that brushless motors like HACKER and O.S. are made in the very same chinese factory, and using the very same internal components -even probably on the very same production line -as some much cheaper so-called "budget" outrunner motors.
-The only difference is that the "HACKER" outrunner motors are painted on the outside with a pretty purple colour, and of course they also have that all-important little "Hacker" sticker on the outside. That is it. End of.
-However, the retail price of an average HACKER outrunner brushless motor is anything from $70 up to $250 or more ...
-whereas the retail price of an identical outrunner motor, without the little "Hacker" sticker on the outside, will be anything from $5 to $40.
We have with brushless motors, exactly the same situation as the "designer label" culture in fashion and clothes. The very gullible and impressionable punters who want to show off to their mates that "ooohh look, I've got a Hacker motor in my plane" will end up paying $200 for their nice purple motor with a little "Hacker" label on the outside. Whereas the more wise and knowing people, will get an identical outrunner motor ( -perhaps with even better performance) from HobbyKing or Giant Cod or another very good on-line shop, for $25 ...
And one question: Who pockets all the massive excess profit on the "designer label" motors ...? Answer: Mr Hacker, and Mr O.S. (or Mr Futaba, if you prefer...) -who all drive round in their nice red Ferrari cars (another "designer label") -purchased on the back of the huge profits made from the punters who simply cannot resist having anything other than "designer label" brushless motors ...
|Apr 06, 2012, 06:22 AM|
United Kingdom, Worcs
Joined Mar 2012
List of brushless motor manufacturers
Here is a list of the information that I have, for manufacturers of brushless motors. Please do feel free to add to this, if you know of other manufacturers.
LIST OF BRUSHLESS MOTOR MANUFACTURERS
SunRay Technology Co., Ltd. Shenzhen, http://sunraytechnology.com
CURRENT MANUFACTURER OF HACKER OUTRUNNER MOTORS
-O.S. BRUSHLESS MOTORS
-EXTREME FLIGHT TORQUE MOTORS
-GREAT PLANES ELECTRIFY RIMFIRE MOTORS (Part of: HOBBICO)
-ALSO MYSTERY SPEED CONTROLLERS
XYH, EMP, Electric Model Power ( -Also sold as: Turnigy "standard", Turnigy "SK", Purple Power "4-max", Overlander "Tornado Thumper", DualSky, Ray, Hextronic, Exceed, Gemini, Aeronuts, Pelikan, Twister, BRCHobbies -and many many other names) http://www.xingyaohua.com/web/en/index.asp
EMAX, YinYan Model, LoongMax ( -Also sold as: Turnigy "Typhoon" heli motors ) http://www.yinyanmodel.com/
Suppo Model ( -Also sold as: Turnigy EasyMatch, Turnigy "H" motors, Grayson, BP Hobbies, Helimate, Dynamo, BRCHobbies) http://www.suppomodel.com/
Aoyuxiang, Aoxan, Aoxing http://aoxan.en.alibaba.com/, http:/...gongchang.com/
Once Top Motor Manufacture Co., Ltd www.wanzhida.cn
Pulso Motors (-Also sold as: Innov8tive "Cobra") http://www.pulsosystem.com/
SJ-Propo (Chinese factory: Aisijie Technology, in Shenzhen) http://sjproporc.com/
-SJ-Propo (based in South Korea): Is the previous chinese manufacturer of HACKER outrunner motors, and also of the older HYPERION outrunner motors
SUNNY SKY, Model Co., Ltd, Zhongshan City http://www.rcsunnysky.com
SUNRISE MOTOR, Changzhou Sunrise Electric Motor Company http://www.china-bldcmotor.com/
Model Motors, AXI http://www.modelmotors.cz/
Zhuhai Huamai Electronics and Model, Chinahimark, Himark, Himax http://www.chinahimark.com/
ZhuHai GS Model Accessories Mfg http://www.gsmodels.com/en/introduce.html
Shenzhen Saite Motor Co., Ltd http://www.saite-motor.com/about-us
Oversky motors (mostly for small planes and helis) http://www.overskyrc.com/index.php?m...=index&cPath=1
ARC ARC motor -manufacturer website unknown
Leopard, Leopard Power Model Co Ltd http://www.leopardhobby.com/enindex.asp
HET motor, High-End Technology RC http://www.highendrc.com/
Neu Motors http://www.neumotors.com/Site/Welcome.html
Hacker (inrunner motors still made in Germany, outrunners made in Chinese factory) http://www.hacker-motor.com/en/home/index.html
PJS Motors (VERY high quality) http://www.pjs.cz/index.php?cPath=1
Cyclon - no information about Cyclon manufacturing their own brushless motors
OTHER CHINESE FACTORIES FOR BRUSHLESS MOTORS:
Chongqing Maitian Mechanical & Electrical Co., Ltd. www.maitian.com.cn/BLMOTOR.htm
China Topwin Industry Co.,Ltd http://www.chinatopwin.com/
Shenzhen Power Motor Industrial Co http://www.power-motor.com/
Dernfu Electronic (Dongguan) Co., Ltd http://dernfu.en.alibaba.com/product...ess_Motor.html
Last edited by The Dark Knight; Apr 15, 2012 at 03:34 PM. Reason: new info
|Apr 06, 2012, 07:28 AM|
United States, VA, Moneta
Joined Jan 2007
You've had the motors taken apart and analyzed?
You've been to the factory and seen them using the same parts?
Or are you guessing?
I've got some of these "look-alike" motors and they don't seem to be identical - similar but not identical.
|Apr 06, 2012, 07:49 AM|
The Dark Knight,
I know that you've taken a lot of heat in this thread, but I appreciate your efforts. I have had a very similar, yet not as extensive list, as you for a couple of years now. I found it interesting, to me, to try and track down who's doing what. Probably makes no practical differences to our end use, but as some say, knowledge is power and some folks my find your info helpful, and even if it is not helpful, at least informative.
|Apr 06, 2012, 11:59 AM|
So... If brands and logos are all a big illusion and people only use them as a status symbol like you claim, why are Hacker and Scorpion outrunners the most popular for use in high-demand models? Why don't the folks flying them save a few bucks and go with the "identical or perhaps even better" cheap motors and get the same or better performance?
|Apr 06, 2012, 12:23 PM|
United Kingdom, Worcs
Joined Mar 2012
Actually, it is rather different ..
Interesting point, C₄H₁₀
I make the following brief answers:
1. Many people are actually very disappointed indeed, with the performance of HACKER motors.
2. I have talked to more than 300 people, and I can tell you absolutely certainly that there is nothing special at all, about HACKER motors, in any way whatsoever.
3. I know of at least 30 people who have had a HACKER motor in either a Sebart Angel 30 or Angel 50, using the recommended motor, ESC and Li-Po's -and they have been so disappointed they have swopped it for a Turnigy SK motor, or an EMAX motor, and obtained much better performance.
4. We had a situation here is the UK, where competition people in a certain national class (Fun Fly) were on the whole, using a HACKER 30 motor. However, they were all so very diappointed with the HACKER that they all changed it for a TURNIGY SK 35-42 motor. They were all so pleased with the Turnigy SK, that this then became the standard motor for that competition class.
Three final points: A. There is a huge amount of objective evidence out there, from all the large number of independent tests done by e.g. Dr Kiwi, Bruce Abbott, Ken Myers, and many other people -showing that HACKER and O.S. motors perform no better, and often not as well, as other makes of motor. Also see: http://www.flybrushless.com/search
B. One has to realise and acknowledge fullly that HACKER motors are a relatively old design now. They may have been good motors, in 2004 and 2005. However, over the last 6 years, all the chinese manufacturers have copied every detail, and have caught up very fast. And brushless motors are so simple, there is only ONE moving part, and the rest is just magnets, and wire wrapped round a stator. There is nothing clever at all, about brushless motors. So it is very easy indeed for all the chinese factories to make their brushless motors just as good, and often better, than the HACKER motors.
C. Finally, let us say a particular HACKER or O.S. motor costs $200. And there is another motor, with all identical specs, available from HobbyKing or another typical on-line shop, for just $40. -Is the HACKER or O.S. motor ever going to be 5 times as good, as the other (very good and high quality) motor.
Fact is: You often pay 5 times as much for a HACKER or O.S. motor, and actually get worse performance from it, compared to the $40 motor ... -That is real life ... -That is the real situation for a great many people...
Last edited by The Dark Knight; Apr 06, 2012 at 02:07 PM.
|Apr 06, 2012, 12:38 PM|
If what D.K. Says is true about Hacker outrunners. Then I'm amazed that anodized purple colour and a screened label makes so much difference on the dyno and in the air. Oh wait. I get it. The machines are just as dazzeled by the "designer label" as humans are. And um, Ferrari is "just" another designer label? So there's no difference between a Ferrari and a Fiat other than label? Truely amazing how not only humans but machines can be so nastily tricked by fancy labeling.
I'm still waiting for his explaination about the actual differences in the dyno numbers between the cheapie motors and the high end motors.
Untill he can disprove these numbers his arguements are totally meaningless.
I don't care if my old 928 Porsche was made at Sttutgart or Wolfsburg. It didn't drive anything like a Golf. Same with the nifty Bughatti. It may be made by VW but it sure isn't anything like a Beetle.
|Apr 06, 2012, 12:39 PM|
What is the point of all this nonsense????
I am not sure what the point is regarding this thread, but for some reason "The Dark Knight", whose actual name is Julian Stephenson from a company called AllFlight in the United Kingdom, is on some sort of self-serving crusade to attempt to uncover the origins of every motor that is currently for sale on planet earth.
He started contacting me on February 23rd this year posing as a legitimate business that wanted to get 200 pieces each of 3 different size brushless motors custom made for their company. His first email stated the following,
DEAR: COBRA MOTORS, Innov8tive Designs
I have heard Very Good Reports indeed, about your motors; From all my good friends in Germany, USA and also in Korea:
I wish to order the following brushless motors:
20-22T: Weight: 57g; Kv: 924; Turns: 22, diameter 28mm, length 34mm, Shaft 3mm
30-10T: Weight: 177g; Kv: 900; Turns: 10; diameter 37.2mm, length 48.8mm, Shaft 5mm
50-16T: Weight: 385g; Kv 378; Turns: 16; diameter 48.8mm, length 63mm, Shaft 6mm
I would like them made similar to the following designs, please: But I want them all made with a GREEN CASE:
I replied to him with examples of Cobra motors that would be close to his specifications. later that same day I got the following reply back from him.
Dear Lucien Miller, Innov8tive Designs, Inc.:
You have a model operation in the USA, and we have one in the UK. So we do not interfere with each other.
- Our model business is shown on: www.allflight.co.uk
We have for some time now, been looking for a range of brushless motors which are very high quality, but at the same time do not cost huge amounts -like Hacker and AXI do ...
We understand from our various contacts, that SUNNY SKY is a very large manufacturer in China (one of the largest in the model area) -and that in addition, SUNNY SKY also manufacture Hacker motors (the ones that are made in China), as well as the Extreme Flight Torque motors ( -which are mostly identical to Hacker motors ..)
I just thought I would drop you a line, to see what your opinion of the OEM Sunny Sky motors is, since we intend to order a large batch to be sold in the UK.
Have you found these motors to give very good performance, and to be reliable ?
Have Sunny Sky been easy to deal with, and what level of support have they provided ...?
I would really appreciate hearing from you before we order a batch from Sunny Sky, I really would be very grateful.
Very best wishes, and thanks for help,
PS: Who do you find to be the best person to deal with, at Sunny Sky ..?
I expalined to him a few details about our arrangements with the producers of the Cobra motors, and he just kept coming back with replay after reply asking about the origins of evey RC model motor known to man. He continued to send me email after email asking about differnet brands of motors, and if I knew what the origins were and which factory made them, and finally, I got tired of dealing with it and simply quit responding to his emails.
Today he sent me an email pointing to this thread, so I came and took a look. Apparantly he is very proud of his "Journalistic Undercover Work" and the fact that he has gotten to the bottom of the RC Brushless Motor Conspiricy. The truth of the matter is that a large amount of his so-called "facts" are simply not true and I still fail to see the point of this thread.
I have personally been involved with distribution of motors in the hobby industry since October of 2006. I have personsonally been to the Scorpion factory on two seperate occasions in 2008 and 2010. I have toured all three floors of the factory, been on all four floors of the office building, toured the dorm facility, purchased a soda in the on-site convenience store and have even been up on the roof of the factory to see the entire complex. I have eaten in their cafeteria (which was quite good I must say!) and even spent a night in the dorm facility. It is safe to say that I know EXACTLY what goes on at Scorpion, because I have seen ALL of it first hand.
I have watched the entire motor building process from start to finish. I have seen the individual stator laminations being punched out, went to another area where they were stacked and pressed together into stator assemblies, then watched assembly workers hand wind the motor stators. I have also been in the machine shop and watched CNC machines crank out flux rings, bearing tubes and front housings on brand-new, state of the art, Japanese CNC machines to incredible precision.
I have also been in the final assembly area where all the sub-assemblies come together to become Scorpion motors, and seen the final step of the process where the motors are carefully packed into their custom metal can boxes, labeled and placed in a shipping contained with the words "Innov8tive Designs" on the side of the box, knowing that a week later, these motors that I just watched being built would arrive at our door back in California for distribution across the United States.
The TRUTH of the matter is that there IS a difference from one motor manufacturer to another and there is a HUGE difference in the quality of the materials used, the fit and the finish of motors from different manufacturers. Scorpion motors are built with special alloys of steel for the stator lamination and the flux rings which are specifically designed for use in small brushless motors. This is what allows the Scorpion motors to have higher efficiency and run cooler than virtually every other motor out there.
This can be seen in other industries as well. You can by a set of wrenches from Snap-On or MAC, or you can buy a set of wrenches from Harbor Freight. Both will turn a nut, and for all intents and purpose, perform the same function, but I can guarantee that the top quality tools are made from a better grade of steel, and if used day in and day out by a mechanic, the top grade tools will last a lifetime, where the cheaper ones will have to be replaced every couple years.
Likewise, a $25 motor from Hobby King will spin a prop just like a $100 motor from Scorpion or a $75 motor from Cobra will. However, I can guarantee you that the better grade motors will do it more efficiently and run cooler than the cheaper grade motors will. You can also get replacement parts quickly and easily for the better grade products such as Scorpion and Cobra.
Finally, and most importantly, is the service before, during and after the sale that you get when you buy a Scorpion or Cobra motor. Try calling Hobby King during the day and ask them what motor you should get for a certain airplane or helicopter. Good Luck! Here at Innov8tive Designs, we have taken the time to test every single motor we sell, and offer support products like the Scorpion Calc program and the Prop Charts that we post on our website free of charge. With these tools, you can check and see exactly what performance you can get from one of our motors, and know exactly which prop to use to get the desired results.
I think by now anyone that has read this post to this point should know where I stand on this issue. The Forums here are usually a great source of information and provide an open exchange of ideas on a variety of topics. Unfortunately, from time to time, threads start and it seems that their only purpose is to stir up controversy and attempt to pass off half-truths and rumors as facts, which leads to a bunch of gossip and pointless discussion.
The best thing to do with a thread like this is to simply ignore it, and it will eventually fade off into obscurity with countless others like it.
So go out, fly something, and have fun!
|Apr 06, 2012, 12:49 PM|
It wasn't me that's made any statements about Hacker motors. Never had one to test or fly and have firsthand information about them. Just wanted to clear that up.
Also, from what I READ, the Hackers are actually on V2 now. I PERSONALLY know folks using the V2s, they are Hacker outrunner users as that is the brand they prefer for whatever reason, and have stated to me the V2 seem better, but they were not specific as to why.
The majority of my planes are powered by Scorpion motors. I'm considering using Cobra as well. Why? One word, absolutely excellent service from Lucien.
To me, service is primary over "brand" by a huge margin! Period.
Last edited by Ken Myers; Apr 06, 2012 at 12:55 PM.
|Apr 06, 2012, 01:43 PM|
United Kingdom, Worcs
Joined Mar 2012
Scorpion brushless motors
I have read what Mr Miller has posted. I must say, I have no valid opinion myself, as to whether SCORPION does manufacture their own brushless motors, or not. I have no evidence myself, one way or the other.
However, in post #1 of this thread, I did refer to another RCGroups thread:
Actual post: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2428
--in which the RCG member called "makeitworst" had commented:
" ... brand name" motors are the same as the nameless ones from the very same factories. I know this because I import the same motors from China and talk with most of the factories. The factory management loves to "brag" about who they make for ...
... The biggest fakers are Scorpion and Hacker, because they do very little to hide their version from the unbranded motor which you can buy right from the factory or Hobby Chitty. These are made by KEDA Model of Changsha City China ... and guess what, they also make all the Hackers!! ..."
It therefore seems that it is not me, but rather it is "makeitworst", who Mr Miller might need to convince. Ron.
Last edited by The Dark Knight; Apr 06, 2012 at 01:49 PM.
|Apr 06, 2012, 01:54 PM|
United Kingdom, Worcs
Joined Mar 2012
Other comments of "makeitworst"
I have read again the post made by the RCG member "makeitworst";
It is fascinating that he has dealt directly with a great many of the chinese factory manufacturers of brushless motors, and that with this knowledge he is able to state:
" ... There is a real misconception of motor reliability based on the brand name on the motor ..."
" ... For those that don't know, 90% of all RC Brushless motors are made in China and those "brand name" motors are the same as the nameless ones from the very same factories ...".
" ... You can buy the exact same Scorpion or Hacker motor unbranded for 1/3 the cost right from the factory or a dealer in Shanghai or HK ..."
" ... All is not what it appears to be ..."
I must say, it does largely seem to support the general case that we are making, in this thread. Ron.
Last edited by The Dark Knight; Apr 06, 2012 at 02:28 PM.
|Apr 06, 2012, 02:14 PM|
United States, VA, Moneta
Joined Jan 2007
OK Dark Knight how about this.
I import motors. I have dealt with many of the factories. I have been to China. I love their food. I know the managers at the factories. I've been to their homes. I play with their kids. The love to brag about the great motors they make for Hacker. The don't like to talk about the not so good stuff they make for the off brands.
Now does the fact that I posted this statement here prove anything? Of course not because you have no way to determine if it is true or not. And I am not going to enlighten you.
You have statements from various people. Some have identified themselves, the company they work for, the products they sell. Others are unidentified posters claiming to have knowledge.
You reference those that support your position regardless of the credibility of the post.
I can tell you this - you can only tell so much by a visual comparison of two motors. There are factors relating to the materials used and the properties thereof that can not be determined through visual inspection but must be analyzed using specific equipment and procedures.
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