HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Mar 09, 2012, 02:26 PM
Build it, don't buy it
foamnpacktape's Avatar
Calgary, AB, Canada
Joined Apr 2008
2,201 Posts
Discussion
Hell

This thread is not about the validity of the Bible, rather a discussion of what is contained therein. Some may believe it a fairy tale, that is fine but not within the constraints of this debate, and such commentary is not warranted or welcome.

I have had some preliminary discussions with my brother in law over this, and his perception is decidedly less lenient. Very soon this will come to a head, and I will have to prove my POV given what the word reveals. I have a relatively open mind in this regard, but my opinion has yet to be contradicted to my satisfaction. That said, I have a somewhat limited knowledge compared to my brother in law, and want my ducks in a row, or be willing to concede before the first shot is fired.

My take on it:

We will start with a Bible verse I learned as a child recited from that very memory which is now 40 years past. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

What permeates my thought here is the word "perish", perhaps a translation can be linked that defies my impression of the word?

Perish to me implies a finality, an end. Furthermore, its presentation implies certain antagonism and opposition to the following thought "everlasting life" which I note is not qualitative in nature. This IMO implies that those without faith die, cease to exist. There is no suffering for all eternity. The atheist, need not worry about punishment, just reward or rather, lack thereof. I make exception for those that actually worship the devil and evil, and of course the devil himself and his demons, they may indeed be deserving of a more terrible fate; but those that are good yet unfaithful are not deserving of such terrible fate given my perceptions of the nature of my God.

This is where the argument begins. I implore those participating not to bring judgement, rather express opinion in an objective manner, ie. use "one" rather than "you".

Very curious where this path will lead,
Carey.
foamnpacktape is offline Find More Posts by foamnpacktape
Last edited by foamnpacktape; Mar 09, 2012 at 09:58 PM. Reason: changed title
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 09, 2012, 03:28 PM
Don't look at me like that....
62pilot's Avatar
United States, AR, McDougal
Joined Aug 2005
2,801 Posts
I don't think there is a difference what name his followers call him. Or even if they pray to mutiple Gods. I believe if there is an All Knowing Creator, He understands that the different Religious bases. It all comes down to how one worshipd him in their heart. Churches, book, preaching dosn't matter.
62pilot is offline Find More Posts by 62pilot
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 09, 2012, 04:25 PM
Build it, don't buy it
foamnpacktape's Avatar
Calgary, AB, Canada
Joined Apr 2008
2,201 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 62pilot View Post
I don't think there is a difference what name his followers call him. Or even if they pray to mutiple Gods. I believe if there is an All Knowing Creator, He understands that the different Religious bases. It all comes down to how one worshipd him in their heart. Churches, book, preaching dosn't matter.
I have made my choice, I have faith in Jesus Christ, God, and the Holy Spirit. I believe I am sincere in that belief, doubt creeps in on occasion, yet is washed away in short order. My God is a loving God, we will all face him in judgement, and he will decide whether the agnostic, the atheist, or any member of another group gains entrance to his kingdom. I think this is agreeable with your POV.

Thanks for posting pilot,
Carey.
foamnpacktape is offline Find More Posts by foamnpacktape
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 09, 2012, 04:32 PM
You sabotaged my plane.
eliworm's Avatar
Arizona
Joined Jun 2002
2,824 Posts
My take on the subject.

Life and death is before mankind. We are not immortal. We either live or die. Verses in the bible bring out that man has an end with nothing beyond.

When dead a person is unconscious as if asleep. Notice Jesus compared his friends Lazarus death as if he was asleep.

John 11:11-14
New International Version
 11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10
New American Standard Bible
5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.


The soul does not keep living.


Ezekiel 18:20
American Standard Version
 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Notice Adam was a living soul. His punishment was death according to the Bible not torture.

Genesis 2:7
King James Version
 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:17
King James Version
 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.



Versus that people use to say a person is tortured forever are normally used in prophecy and parables but they take them literally. There is more to discuss but that's it in a nutshell.
eliworm is offline Find More Posts by eliworm
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 09, 2012, 06:14 PM
Build it, don't buy it
foamnpacktape's Avatar
Calgary, AB, Canada
Joined Apr 2008
2,201 Posts
Hi Eli,

You have brought to the discussion something totally unexpected, and frankly left me speechless. Certainly on topic though, thanks for posting. I will give your take due consideration, novel in my experience to say the least.

Cheers,
Carey.
foamnpacktape is offline Find More Posts by foamnpacktape
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 09, 2012, 06:44 PM
LcJ
Forever TMWT Pilot #11
LcJ's Avatar
United States, LA, Monroe
Joined Mar 2003
5,929 Posts
Carey, too much to discuss and most beyond my pay grade. This life is but a preparations for the life to come. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said everlasting life for a reason and He said He would come again and that we would be with Him. Cannot say I understand it, but I believe it. How God deals with and judges others is His to do and not me to second guess. It will be fair and just and in all honesty, why would anyone who has rejected him throughout this life ever want Him in the next? But then He could quicken them and give them a new view and a new belief and save them if He chooses. All I can judge is me and I am a sinner, sentenced to everlasting Hell who sought forgiveness through the Blood of Jesus as such was granted.

What we need to know He will show us when we need to know it. No where does it say understand it only trust and believe in Jesus who is the best image we have of the love of God.

Probably doesn't make much sense, or maybe it will.

God Is and Jesus Is and we are because they do live.

Peace,
Lyle
LcJ is offline Find More Posts by LcJ
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: RC Logger's Eye One Xtreme Quad
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 09, 2012, 06:55 PM
RRR
Suspended Account
Kentucky
Joined Jun 2004
115 Posts
Hell is simple. You find True love,True freedom,True happness and are sent away with just a shimmer of remberince(right spelling?) Not to burn but to start over.
RRR is offline Find More Posts by RRR
Reply With Quote  (Disabled)
Old Mar 09, 2012, 07:34 PM
Registered User
Peacemakr40's Avatar
Joined Aug 2011
91 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by foamnpacktape View Post
Perish to me implies a finality, an end. Furthermore, its presentation implies certain antagonism and opposition to the following thought "everlasting life" which I note is not qualitative in nature. This IMO implies that those without faith die, cease to exist. There is no suffering for all eternity. The atheist, need not worry about punishment, just reward or rather, lack thereof. I make exception for those that actually worship the devil and evil, and of course the devil himself and his demons, they may indeed be deserving of a more terrible fate. But those that are good yet unfaithful are not deserving given my perceptions of the nature of my God.
Very curious where this path will lead,
Carey.
Carey,
It's the bolded section that I have difficulty with. I believe a person who lives a good honorable life should be entited to the same acceptance through the gates as someone who confesses their sins on their deathbeds, if not able to cut in line ahead of the latter. I point out those Good honorable persons who lived and died before Christ existed? were they automatically "damned"? If you believe in a fair honorable God, then that doesn't pass the litmus test. Those who have other beliefs but might not accept Jesus as the Son of God, but can still be good honorable people as well. I can't say to them "accept Jesus or perish" as that is not living life as Christ would. wouldn't you agree?

Russ,
Resident Pagan Clergy member
Peacemakr40 is offline Find More Posts by Peacemakr40
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 09, 2012, 09:50 PM
Registered User
Beaumont ,peoples republic of Kalifornia
Joined Jan 2004
277 Posts
Quote:
shimmer of remberince
which disappears at circumcision .
debogus is online now Find More Posts by debogus
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 09, 2012, 09:57 PM
Build it, don't buy it
foamnpacktape's Avatar
Calgary, AB, Canada
Joined Apr 2008
2,201 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacemakr40 View Post
Carey,
It's the bolded section that I have difficulty with. I believe a person who lives a good honorable life should be entited to the same acceptance through the gates as someone who confesses their sins on their deathbeds, if not able to cut in line ahead of the latter. I point out those Good honorable persons who lived and died before Christ existed? were they automatically "damned"? If you believe in a fair honorable God, then that doesn't pass the litmus test. Those who have other beliefs but might not accept Jesus as the Son of God, but can still be good honorable people as well. I can't say to them "accept Jesus or perish" as that is not living life as Christ would. wouldn't you agree?

Russ,
Resident Pagan Clergy member
Hey Russ,

You may have misread the bolded sentence as I was a bit unclear, reread it in light of the sentence preceding it. I will edit it to clarify, but what I was saying is those referenced in the bold sentence are not deserving of the same fate as evil, for they are not.

I tend to agree with you. My God is loving and just, I have faith that such questions as you present are addressed by him given those attributes.

Carey.
foamnpacktape is offline Find More Posts by foamnpacktape
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 09, 2012, 10:02 PM
Build it, don't buy it
foamnpacktape's Avatar
Calgary, AB, Canada
Joined Apr 2008
2,201 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LcJ View Post
Carey, too much to discuss and most beyond my pay grade. This life is but a preparations for the life to come. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said everlasting life for a reason and He said He would come again and that we would be with Him. Cannot say I understand it, but I believe it. How God deals with and judges others is His to do and not me to second guess. It will be fair and just and in all honesty, why would anyone who has rejected him throughout this life ever want Him in the next? But then He could quicken them and give them a new view and a new belief and save them if He chooses. All I can judge is me and I am a sinner, sentenced to everlasting Hell who sought forgiveness through the Blood of Jesus as such was granted.

What we need to know He will show us when we need to know it. No where does it say understand it only trust and believe in Jesus who is the best image we have of the love of God.

Probably doesn't make much sense, or maybe it will.

God Is and Jesus Is and we are because they do live.

Peace,
Lyle
Hi Lyle,

It is a difficult subject to wrap one's brain around, but your words do make sense to me, I am not sure if that is good or bad.

Cheers,
Carey.
foamnpacktape is offline Find More Posts by foamnpacktape
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 09, 2012, 10:06 PM
I ♥ OpenTX
H2SO4's Avatar
Australia, New South Wales, Sydney
Joined Jan 2011
2,706 Posts
Death is non-existence. "Before I was born, I was dead for billions of years, and I suffered not the slightest inconvenience."

Death is noble. After living out their lives to the best of their abilities and intentions, all animals die, thus freeing up space and resources for subsequent generations.

Death is final. When a person dies, their personality and memories are gone forever. That adds urgency and poignancy to life, and it makes books one of mankind's most important achievements.

Everlasting life bought through servility towards a supernatural power would be hell.
H2SO4 is offline Find More Posts by H2SO4
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 09, 2012, 10:07 PM
Build it, don't buy it
foamnpacktape's Avatar
Calgary, AB, Canada
Joined Apr 2008
2,201 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RRR View Post
Hell is simple. You find True love,True freedom,True happness and are sent away with just a shimmer of remberince(right spelling?) Not to burn but to start over.
Hi RRR,

This reminds me of The Dark Tower series by Steven King, it is a long read, but one of his finest works. If you are a reader I highly recommend it, it is not horror, more apocalyptic sci-fi.

Regards,
Carey.
foamnpacktape is offline Find More Posts by foamnpacktape
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 09, 2012, 10:12 PM
Build it, don't buy it
foamnpacktape's Avatar
Calgary, AB, Canada
Joined Apr 2008
2,201 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2SO4 View Post
Death is non-existence. "Before I was born, I was dead for billions of years, and I suffered not the slightest inconvenience."

Death is noble. After living out their lives to the best of their abilities and intentions, all animals die, thus freeing up space and resources for subsequent generations.

Death is final. When a person dies, their personality and memories are gone forever. That adds urgency and poignancy to life, and it makes books one of mankind's most important achievements.

Everlasting life bought through servility towards a supernatural power would be hell.
My service to God, is a joy, and makes me a better man. It is all good. Even if it were to turn out that my faith is misplaced, and I were to discover it with my last breath, I would have no regrets.

Carey.
foamnpacktape is offline Find More Posts by foamnpacktape
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 09, 2012, 10:17 PM
I ♥ OpenTX
H2SO4's Avatar
Australia, New South Wales, Sydney
Joined Jan 2011
2,706 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by foamnpacktape View Post
My service to God, is a joy, and makes me a better man. It is all good. Even if it were to turn out that my faith is misplaced, and I were to discover it with my last breath, I would have no regrets.

Carey.
Most people are like that, irrespective of what they believe.

On a more biblical note, I gather that the bible never actually describes hell in any detail, and that our societal notions of what goes on in christian hell are largely after-the-fact constructs. Is that true?
H2SO4 is offline Find More Posts by H2SO4
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Is he, or isn't he dead? And what is next for Libya... wrightme Life, The Universe, and Politics 99 Oct 29, 2011 01:02 PM
Discussion It is Hockey Time Mr. Kite Blimps 0 Oct 05, 2011 05:41 AM
Discussion H E double hocky sticks has frozen over. Mr. Wiz Life, The Universe, and Politics 49 May 16, 2011 03:11 PM
Discussion Im going to H E Double Hockey sticks for this KingOfTheHill Slope 14 Nov 11, 2007 05:36 PM
Discussion HELP! My Blade CX is fustrating the HE Double Hockey sticks outta me! kushal_22 Coaxial Helicopters 3 Feb 07, 2006 04:18 PM