Rules, clubs, lawyers, and insurance help please

I2DDD · Oct 18, 2003, 11:18 PM

I found this forum by direction from a friend and this is my first post here. I attempted the same at the other site but the subject has been derailed.

This is not a troll and I really wish to get opinions about the following.

Please if you do not want to offer genuine and serious thoughts please...please...please refrain.

Ok ponder…does the potential of a board member or member of a club to be sued , as result of an accident, increase due to club safety rules that are enacted beyond those mandated by the AMA. Just for the sake of this discussion let us not consider rules specific to just that flying field and its particular flying conditions such as over flying of roads, houses or other structures etc… or other such type rules. Instead let us focus on rules that could be adopted for any club for safety operations such as…

Do not start and run an engine behind a certain line while in the pits

Or

Do not start and run an engine under the hanger

Or

Pilots should only stand in this spot while flying

Or

Only 4 airplanes in the air at one time

Or

Models should only fly a particular pattern and distance from the pilot stations

Or

Helicopters can not be flown along with airplanes

Or

No 3d flying on Sunday

Or

On and on and on ........

Although on the surface the rules may seem beneficial to some, could they very well be construed as exclusions to AMA coverage and leave the rule makers vulnerable, especially if the rules are not disseminated and applied properly? IMO yes!

What say ye?

Don Sims · Oct 19, 2003, 08:21 AM

Welcome to the site and it looks like a great question. Hope you visit our other forums.

Perhaps the club is being micro managed by someone who is inconsistant. Several of the rules you mentioned make good common sence but a few are strange like the amount of planes in the air at one time. What is the reason why those rules were made and did the club vote on them? Whats the clubs bilaws say about such rules??
Don

easytiger · Oct 19, 2003, 08:55 AM

I do not beleive it to be a factor.
I do NOT see AMA or AMA's insurance company denying claims based upon tiny violations of the safety code...
For instance, I have never heard of anybody denied due to not having their AMA number or adress on the model, and I'd say that 75% of the planes out there do not.
While I supposed they COULD deny on this basis, it seems they do not.
I don't beleive it increases the vulnerability of club officers...
If someone REALLY wants to sue, they are going to anyway.
The rules will help prevent problems in the first place.

Jim Branaum · Oct 19, 2003, 12:52 PM

The AMA EC is attempting to unhook the SC from the insurance issue. Go to the AMA site and read the first lines of the 2003 SC and compare them to the 2004 SC.

Club members HAVE sued club officers and WON when the officers failed to follow already in place rules and did not use due process in exercising their power. One end result of that nightmare is that the AMA no longer covers officers for liable and slander and I suspect the AMA would bail out if it were too easy to prove the local club EC violated existing rules of the local club.

I think it is the position that the AMA is NOT a police organization or a money trough that drove the decisions around that action and led to todays situtation. Now club recharter packets require club by laws to be submitted for review. When a club's rules are found inadequate, I have been told they will be asked to modify them accordingly.

A sample to draw from can be found on the AMA site in .PDF format. Be careful not all those rules are good, or legal in your state, or even desirable. That is the task you and your club must take on.

I think that as a club officer you would make a point of making sure every member was aware of any new rule enacted as soon as possible to prevent field loss. Now if the rule making was just an excersize in power politics, I would plan on ducking a lot. <G>

easytiger · Oct 19, 2003, 04:15 PM

I think you are talking about a different issue, Jim.
The lawsuit you are talking about has to do with internal club politics, kicking somebody out, the liability with THAT.
Hence the need for all clubs to have some sort of codified bylaws.

I think what the OP is talking about is different.

I2DDD · Oct 19, 2003, 08:02 PM

I guess what has me concerned is the phrase "becomes an exclusion to AMA coverage" or words to that effect as it relates to club rules. I understand that making club members aware of rules and especially new or changed rules is paramount but sometimes things just seem to have a way of falling through the cracks and of course it is the member that is not engaged or indifferent that is the problem. Should a club send registered mail for changes in rules to insure adequate notice or what?

Are my concerns justified or should I just forget it and go fly?

easytiger · Oct 19, 2003, 10:01 PM

Go fly.
You are talking apples and oranges, and misinterpreting the gist of that lawsuit, which had nothing to do with any safety code.

I2DDD · Oct 20, 2003, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by easytiger
Go fly.
You are talking apples and oranges, and misinterpreting the gist of that lawsuit, which had nothing to do with any safety code.

Don asks “club vote on them? Whats the clubs bilaws say about such rules??”

Don The club voted on some and I am not sure just how others came to be and our bylaws do not address safety rules much at all.

easytiger

I guess somehow you may not understand. I am NOT interpreting any particular lawsuit.

I think...you think that I am referring to Jim's post earlier in my previous post. Is that true? If so that is not the case.

Now I wonder if we are all on the same page as for as the topic of this post is concerned.

I really seem to have difficulty getting a point across on these forums. Something just seems to get lost in the transcription of my thoughts somehow.

I will try again...

DO club rules, those that could be interpreted as safety rules above and beyond those prescribed by the AMA, since they become exclusions to AMA coverage; expose the rule makers to a greater chance of litigation since the additional rules decreases the overall parameters of coverage by the AMA in the event of accident?

Please… could those that wish to respond preface their opinion with a YES or a NO before they go into to their reasoning to help maintain an order that is conducive to exchange of ideas and to insure mutual understanding?

Just to clarify some…I am not talking about AMA or AMA's insurance company denying claims based upon tiny violations of the safety code...or discrimination…or violations to any degree of the AMA basic SC…only the rules BEYOND the basic SC.

I realize the AMA may defend the club in an action against them and may contribute to the ultimate settlement. My CONCERN is PURELY your opinions as to whether the PROBIBILITY of some litigation increases or not.

Don Sims · Oct 20, 2003, 05:26 AM

IMHO Yes, if individuals are diluting club rules on safety then they are opening the club up for more libility. Especially if the rules are not enforced across the board.

Keep in mind, I'm not an attorney.

ICTHRMLS · Oct 20, 2003, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by I2DDD

DO club rules, those that could be interpreted as safety rules above and beyond those prescribed by the AMA, since they become exclusions to AMA coverage; expose the rule makers to a greater chance of litigation since the additional rules decreases the overall parameters of coverage by the AMA in the event of accident?

Are you saying that ALL AMA rules are still in place and you are making those requirements stricter??? Or.... are you "diluting" the AMA rules and replacing them with modified versions???

Big difference between the two proposals.

rsallen13 · Oct 20, 2003, 10:58 AM

I2DDD,

The problem is you are asking the wrong group. You need to take this question to a Lawyer who is versed in Insurance and Corporate Law. They are the only ones who can answer this question. Asking Plumbers, Accountants, Truck Drivers, and modelers will not answer this question to your liking. And that is what made it a troll in the other forum just as it will in this forum.

Or better yet send your question to Carl over at AMA and then let us know what they say. And after you hear back from the lawyer post that also as we would all be interested.

I2DDD · Oct 20, 2003, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rsallen13
I2DDD,

The problem is you are asking the wrong group.

rsallen13

Somehow you don't get the point. I want the viewpoints of YOU and OTHERS that post/ read here. I am not looking for legal advice but would appreciate any real world accounts as it pertains to this matter...such as your club views or strategies.

I am trying to get a feel as to how additional rules above and beyond the AMA’s SC are perceived as it relates to club liabilities.

I2DDD · Oct 21, 2003, 12:22 AM

Hey where did JR's post go?

ICTHRMLS · Oct 21, 2003, 10:30 AM

May have strayed off topic a bit..........

I2DDD · Oct 21, 2003, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ICTHRMLS
If you have to ask then maybe they were right............

ICTHRMLS

who is "they" and what are they "right" about?

Oct 18, 2003, 11:18 PM	#1
I2DDD Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 14	Rules, clubs, lawyers, and insurance help please I found this forum by direction from a friend and this is my first post here. I attempted the same at the other site but the subject has been derailed. This is not a troll and I really wish to get opinions about the following. Please if you do not want to offer genuine and serious thoughts please...please...please refrain. Ok ponder…does the potential of a board member or member of a club to be sued , as result of an accident, increase due to club safety rules that are enacted beyond those mandated by the AMA. Just for the sake of this discussion let us not consider rules specific to just that flying field and its particular flying conditions such as over flying of roads, houses or other structures etc… or other such type rules. Instead let us focus on rules that could be adopted for any club for safety operations such as… Do not start and run an engine behind a certain line while in the pits Or Do not start and run an engine under the hanger Or Pilots should only stand in this spot while flying Or Only 4 airplanes in the air at one time Or Models should only fly a particular pattern and distance from the pilot stations Or Helicopters can not be flown along with airplanes Or No 3d flying on Sunday Or On and on and on ........ Although on the surface the rules may seem beneficial to some, could they very well be construed as exclusions to AMA coverage and leave the rule makers vulnerable, especially if the rules are not disseminated and applied properly? IMO yes! What say ye?

Oct 21, 2003, 10:30 AM	#14
ICTHRMLS aka: Dances with Buzzards Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TX Posts: 455	May have strayed off topic a bit.......... Last edited by ICTHRMLS; Oct 21, 2003 at 02:35 PM.

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Oct 19, 2003, 08:21 AM	#2
Don Sims Registered User Join Date: May 2000 Location: Outside of Dyer, Tn. USA Posts: 7,135	Welcome to the site and it looks like a great question. Hope you visit our other forums. Perhaps the club is being micro managed by someone who is inconsistant. Several of the rules you mentioned make good common sence but a few are strange like the amount of planes in the air at one time. What is the reason why those rules were made and did the club vote on them? Whats the clubs bilaws say about such rules?? Don

Oct 19, 2003, 08:55 AM	#3
easytiger Permanently Banned Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 3,816	I do not beleive it to be a factor. I do NOT see AMA or AMA's insurance company denying claims based upon tiny violations of the safety code... For instance, I have never heard of anybody denied due to not having their AMA number or adress on the model, and I'd say that 75% of the planes out there do not. While I supposed they COULD deny on this basis, it seems they do not. I don't beleive it increases the vulnerability of club officers... If someone REALLY wants to sue, they are going to anyway. The rules will help prevent problems in the first place.

Oct 19, 2003, 12:52 PM	#4
Jim Branaum Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 96	The AMA EC is attempting to unhook the SC from the insurance issue. Go to the AMA site and read the first lines of the 2003 SC and compare them to the 2004 SC. Club members HAVE sued club officers and WON when the officers failed to follow already in place rules and did not use due process in exercising their power. One end result of that nightmare is that the AMA no longer covers officers for liable and slander and I suspect the AMA would bail out if it were too easy to prove the local club EC violated existing rules of the local club. I think it is the position that the AMA is NOT a police organization or a money trough that drove the decisions around that action and led to todays situtation. Now club recharter packets require club by laws to be submitted for review. When a club's rules are found inadequate, I have been told they will be asked to modify them accordingly. A sample to draw from can be found on the AMA site in .PDF format. Be careful not all those rules are good, or legal in your state, or even desirable. That is the task you and your club must take on. I think that as a club officer you would make a point of making sure every member was aware of any new rule enacted as soon as possible to prevent field loss. Now if the rule making was just an excersize in power politics, I would plan on ducking a lot. <G>

Oct 19, 2003, 04:15 PM	#5
easytiger Permanently Banned Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 3,816	I think you are talking about a different issue, Jim. The lawsuit you are talking about has to do with internal club politics, kicking somebody out, the liability with THAT. Hence the need for all clubs to have some sort of codified bylaws. I think what the OP is talking about is different.

Oct 19, 2003, 08:02 PM	#6
I2DDD Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 14	I guess what has me concerned is the phrase "becomes an exclusion to AMA coverage" or words to that effect as it relates to club rules. I understand that making club members aware of rules and especially new or changed rules is paramount but sometimes things just seem to have a way of falling through the cracks and of course it is the member that is not engaged or indifferent that is the problem. Should a club send registered mail for changes in rules to insure adequate notice or what? Are my concerns justified or should I just forget it and go fly?

Oct 19, 2003, 10:01 PM	#7
easytiger Permanently Banned Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 3,816	Go fly. You are talking apples and oranges, and misinterpreting the gist of that lawsuit, which had nothing to do with any safety code.

Oct 20, 2003, 05:26 AM	#9
Don Sims Registered User Join Date: May 2000 Location: Outside of Dyer, Tn. USA Posts: 7,135	IMHO Yes, if individuals are diluting club rules on safety then they are opening the club up for more libility. Especially if the rules are not enforced across the board. Keep in mind, I'm not an attorney.

Oct 20, 2003, 10:58 AM	#11
rsallen13 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 3	I2DDD, The problem is you are asking the wrong group. You need to take this question to a Lawyer who is versed in Insurance and Corporate Law. They are the only ones who can answer this question. Asking Plumbers, Accountants, Truck Drivers, and modelers will not answer this question to your liking. And that is what made it a troll in the other forum just as it will in this forum. Or better yet send your question to Carl over at AMA and then let us know what they say. And after you hear back from the lawyer post that also as we would all be interested.

Oct 21, 2003, 12:22 AM	#13
I2DDD Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 14	Hey where did JR's post go?