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Old Mar 09, 2012, 07:06 PM
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Thunderbird is also only seems to be rated to 3S, a lot of people looking for performance ESCs are looking into 4S-6S setups.
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Patrick del Castillo View Post
Jim,

Yes - -I agree. The Phx-25 is an expensive design to produce -- the TBird-18 doesn't have the programmability though..

We need a low-amp, low cost controller with full programmability.
I managed to reprogram a Thunderbird by soldering wire(s) to the microprocessor pins. It would be great if you provided programming pads, best at the edge like the new Turnigy 6A.
But better still, why not join the open source group by enabling the Castle link to download a user supplied .hex file. That way you could gain an advantage over the ATMega based devices which still require flash tools, a real pain on the mlf devices.
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 04:57 AM
A man with too many toys
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Originally Posted by George Shering View Post
I managed to reprogram a Thunderbird by soldering wire(s) to the microprocessor pins. It would be great if you provided programming pads, best at the edge like the new Turnigy 6A.
But better still, why not join the open source group by enabling the Castle link to download a user supplied .hex file. That way you could gain an advantage over the ATMega based devices which still require flash tools, a real pain on the mlf devices.
The problem with that would be the warranty. How could CC warranty anything that was running firmware they have not approved?

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Old Mar 10, 2012, 10:45 AM
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Easy we don't care about Warrenty
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 12:19 PM
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report - quad using open pilot coptercontrol

Folks

Just finished intial test. My comparisons are my mikrokopter and the same openpilot coptercontrol flying with dys unmodified 30 amp ESCs

my setup
400mm MK frame
4 750kv DYS 28-30/14 (not the best motors but thats what I have on hand)
openpilot coptercontol board - output set to 400hz
4 25amp castle phoenix - firmware v4 - set to multirotor - all default firmware settings with regards to motor timing and rates etc

result = unfortunately not good
1) you have to set PIDs to at least 1/3 of what they were with DYS otherwise it would oscilate itself out of the air.
2) even at that setting, the control input was sluggish??
3) I could get it to hover in stabilized mode nicely with 1/3 p value compared to DYS, but it was like flying through honey - sluggish like hell
4) in rate mode, I could not find a p value that would allow the quad to hold position without it oscillating out of the air. that means if I used a lower p value - I could not control it - increasing the p value a bit would give me control but it would oscillate and be uncontrollable that way.

I mostly tried to get a stable rate mode - using p and setting I to zero, but was unsuccessful. So I tried a few combinations of lower p values and increasing I values - but still no joy.

The weird thing is the oscillations were slow even in rate mode. raising rate p is supposed to create rapid oscillation - but it did not!! It was like the output rate was way too slow.

Without trying to sound argumentative or disrespectful to CC. There is no way that the output rate can change the throttle from 0 to 100% 50x per second with this firmware. The output rate is slow.

Unfortunately my only control board is my MK and Steve's copter control. I do have an arducopter, but I don't trust it at all and given the copter control was completely adjustable and flyable using 15$ DYS ESC, the problem is clearly the castle ESCs or the current firmware (sorry )

I have to step out for a while - but if any of you have some suggested setting or firmware settings - I would be happy to test out your suggestions and report back (including any suggestions from the castle folks).

Thanks
Al
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 12:28 PM
A man with too many toys
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You should repeat the tests at 50, 100, 150 and 200 Hz and see if it makes ant difference. I have read that motors can’t respond any faster than 50 Hz so maybe a lower PWM will help.
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RC Man View Post
You should repeat the tests at 50, 100, 150 and 200 Hz and see if it makes ant difference. I have read that motors can’t respond any faster than 50 Hz so maybe a lower PWM will help.
Do you mean in the copter control settings - bring the output rate down - or do you mean a setting in the castle firmwre? Will give it a try

but it was set to 400 with the DYS Escs

Al
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Last edited by alros_100; Mar 10, 2012 at 01:01 PM.
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by alros_100 View Post
Do you mean in the copter control settings - bring the output rate down - or do you mean a setting in the castle firmwre? Will give it a try

but it was set to 400 with the DYS Escs

Al
Hi Al,

Thanks for your detailed report! I really wish that you had experienced different results. It now appears that we had similar findings on both the WK-M and the Copter Control platforms.

It was my feeling as well that the output rate of the Phoenix ESC’s was just not fast enough to keep up with the commands from the Flight Control Systems. Of course this is just the opposite of what Patrick stated earlier, “Perhaps we are changing the output rate TOO FAST, which results in instability”, but it sure didn’t SEEM that way during testing. Of course I’m not an engineer so it is only speculation at this point.

In regard to changing the output rates as RC Man is suggesting, “50, 100, 150 and 200 Hz”, that would have to be done in an FC (if the one your testing is even capable) since there is no provision for that in the current CC Multi-rotor firmware. In the multi-rotor firmware, about the closest that you can get is being able to change the Motor Timing from LOW to NORMAL to HIGH and selectable PWM Rates of 8,12,16 & 24, none of which made much of a difference in my testing.

I would really like to know which platforms Castle Creation had the multi-rotor firmware working so well on prior to its release and why it worked on them and not on ours.

Tom
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 02:49 PM
A man with too many toys
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alros_100 View Post
Do you mean in the copter control settings - bring the output rate down - or do you mean a setting in the castle firmwre? Will give it a try

but it was set to 400 with the DYS Escs

Al
The copter control settings - bring the output rate down
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 03:24 PM
Tri-Quad-Hexa-Octo-copters!!
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Gents,
If you have to lower the flight controller's proportional value when using the CC ESCs, then they do not have as good an update rate, or they have some other "smoothing" going on that causes this. ESCs that have linear response and high update rates allow for a higher P setting. See this post for an excellent way to test and find out if the ESCs can respond to rapid input/output:
--Testing ESC update responsiveness: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...55&postcount=9
Cheers,
Jim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC Man View Post
The copter control settings - bring the output rate down
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 04:49 PM
A man with too many toys
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Originally Posted by jesolins View Post
Gents,
If you have to lower the flight controller's proportional value when using the CC ESCs, then they do not have as good an update rate, or they have some other "smoothing" going on that causes this. ESCs that have linear response and high update rates allow for a higher P setting. See this post for an excellent way to test and find out if the ESCs can respond to rapid input/output:
--Testing ESC update responsiveness: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...55&postcount=9
Cheers,
Jim
Quadrocopter and Tricopter Info Mega Link Index

My thinking was that if you try to change the motor speed much faster than I can react that you have a situation where you are over controlling it making for instability. I just thought that if you controlled the motor closer to it’s actual response speed that the entire system would work much better.

If the motor can only respond at 50 Hz I don’t see how truing to control it faster than that is going to cause anything but trouble. The controller is just going to keep cranking up the values but nothing will happen for several frames and by that time the value will not be what you want causing continuous overshoots and loss of stability. It’s been way too many years since I had a control system theory class. Maybe someone could find a timing diagram that would help to clarify this.

The way that helicopter rudder gyros and servos solve that problem is they have very low inertia motors that respond at over 500 Hz. Multi rotors are the opposite as they have relative high inertia outrunners turning large slow turning props.

Do we have any Engineers on this forum that are control system theory experts? Hopefully CC has one working for them – if not we are all in big trouble – LOL.

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Old Mar 10, 2012, 05:28 PM
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faster = better and it does not really matter how fast the prop reacts it matters if thee is smoothing etc... where is that darn post where someone tests a bunch of esc's with a computer scope and shows the esc output response????

CC needs to send us some esc's to their firmware on cause I sure aint buying them if they think this firmare is the best ever created as claimed

Steve
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 05:32 PM
Tri-Quad-Hexa-Octo-copters!!
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Steve and RC,
Here is KapteinKuk's ESC response thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1250488
Cheers,
Jim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saabguyspg View Post
faster = better and it does not really matter how fast the prop reacts it matters if thee is smoothing etc... where is that darn post where someone tests a bunch of esc's with a computer scope and shows the esc output response????

CC needs to send us some esc's to their firmware on cause I sure aint buying them if they think this firmare is the best ever created as claimed

Steve
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 05:35 PM
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Yes!! thanks Jim that's the one!!!

This is what we are looking for!

aaaahhhh teamwork!!! I am cheering for CC to come out with a killer ESC!

Steve
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jesolins View Post
Steve and RC,
Here is KapteinKuk's ESC response thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1250488
Cheers,
Jim
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Yes this shows that keeping the output rate at 400 should be the best.

I will quickly try changing the output rate and report back

Al
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