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Old Mar 02, 2012, 07:34 PM
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Alert
LSF / ALES Decision/Controversy

If you participate in the League of Silent Flight soaring achievement program you need to go to the RC Soaring Exchange (google group) and review the posts relating to incorporating ALES
(altitude limited electric sailplanes) into the LSF soaring achievement tasks.

Tappet
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 07:57 PM
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All sailplaners that belong to the LSF should go to the website and see this important announcement. The preservation of LSF standards could depend on your participation. Use this link http://www.silentflight.org/images/d...20-%202012.pdf
Thanks for your consideration
Larry Jolly
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 08:40 PM
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I already have this subject covered in a thread called "Attention LSF members" - discussion thread in the Thermal forum.

As a point of interest, Jim Deck posted announcements in both the Thermal forum and here in the Sailplane Talk forum, but immediately closed both threads to all comments. However, he also started a thread titled LSF Members interested in ALES in the Altitude Limited Electric Soaring (ALES) forum (where he perhaps expected more positive responses) and left that thread open.
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 08:46 PM
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Yea Mike, sorry I hadn't seen your post.
In light of the sneaky tactics you mentioned I'll say this: THE LSF NEEDS A NEW PRESIDENT.

Nancy Pelosi "We need to pass the bill so we can see what's in it"

Tap
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Mike View Post
I already have this subject covered in a thread called "Attention LSF members" - discussion thread in the Thermal forum.

As a point of interest, Jim Deck posted announcements in both the Thermal forum and here in the Sailplane Talk forum, but immediately closed both threads to all comments. However, he also started a thread titled LSF Members interested in ALES in the Altitude Limited Electric Soaring (ALES) forum (where he perhaps expected more positive responses) and left that thread open.
Or he posted notices in all the threads where he believed they would get noticed and left only one open so that the discussions would be all in one place. The new ALES thread does seem a reasonable location for the discussion to take place as that is the group being considered for inclusion.

Wayne
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 09:31 PM
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Yea, right

So, using that logic, it would be like asking a girl if she wanted to join the Boy Scouts, but not soliciting input from the boys.
Yea, that makes sense.
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 09:41 PM
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I think the LSF board is simply using the ALES issue as a means to address the fundamental flaw in the current bylaws. As they are currently written, the bylaws prevent the board from being able to make any real changes to the SAP. Now before you all thump your chests and say "good it aught to be that way", recognize that there is a very big difference between hard and impossible. If it were not for a previous board violating the bylaws and acting on their own, hand launch would not part of the SAP today. If the only way to make changes to the SAP is for the board to violate the bylaws then something needs to be changed.

Wayne
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tappet View Post
So, using that logic, it would be like asking a girl if she wanted to join the Boy Scouts, but not soliciting input from the boys.
Yea, that makes sense.
Your input was solicited. You were asked directly and directed to put your comments on the LSF website where they would be read by the board. Having conversations scattered all over RCGroups and elsewhere would be a monumentally inefficient way to get input to the board. We can grouse among ourselves all day and night but it is your comments in the LSF form that will influence the outcome.

Wayne
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 09:53 PM
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Yes, we'll all notify LSF of our opinions on the issue, but there's nothing wrong with us talking about it here on RCGroups. We can do both.

By the way, I thought Tappet's comment about Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts was quite clever and appropriate.
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windependence View Post
Your input was solicited. You were asked directly and directed to put your comments on the LSF website where they would be read by the board. Having conversations scattered all over RCGroups and elsewhere would be a monumentally inefficient way to get input to the board. We can grouse among ourselves all day and night but it is your comments in the LSF form that will influence the outcome.

Wayne
You hit the nail right on the head with that one Wayne.

Rob Glover, currently LSF Secretary who incidentally grabs all the input from the LSF website and forwards it to the rest of the board members. Note that I do not gather all the input from other forums and forward it to the LSF board members. Also note that the LSF board members can mostly read, and we do try and respond in a fashion that meets the needs and desires of current and possible future members.

ps - I am also a Level V and hold the SAP in it's current form quite dear to my heart.
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Mike View Post
By the way, I thought Tappet's comment about Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts was quite clever and appropriate.
A more accurate analogy would be that the girl wanted to join the boy scouts, notify the boy scouts of the proposal, ask them for their input and then have the public discussion at the girl's school.

Wayne
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 10:01 PM
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Wrong

An OPEN exchange of opinions between LSF members in a forum like this is a good thing. Guys who don't care about ALES never go to that forum and would not have known that thread was left open for comments.
Members cannot see each others comments on the LSF site. You can say Jim wanted individual inputs but he obviously DID NOT want open discussion among those who are likely to oppose the proposal.
There's a political term for that. It's called "an agenda".
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tappet View Post
An OPEN exchange of opinions between LSF members in a forum like this is a good thing. Guys who don't care about ALES never go to that forum and would not have known that thread was left open for comments.
Members cannot see each others comments on the LSF site. You can say Jim wanted individual inputs but he obviously DID NOT want open discussion among those who are likely to oppose the proposal.
There's a political term for that. It's called "an agenda".
The LSF website does not have any capability for a forum currently. Jim is indeed a proponent of ALES, but he has put the question out to the LSF members. Perhaps you think that he should not be in favor of it, but he is entitled to his opinion just as you are. As a board we desire and are required to follow the by laws and also respond to the needs and desires of our members, and the greater soaring community in general.

I suspect that in the end we will all agree that our soaring bretheren who launch with the winch in the nose of their planes can benefit from an association with the LSF. The LSF can also benefit from an association with folks who launch with a propeller. What shape that takes is yet to be determined. Please bear in mind what the real question is here.
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tappet View Post
Guys who don't care about ALES never go to that forum and would not have known that thread was left open for comments.
The only way I knew was when I did a search for Jim Deck to see where else he had posted the notice.

Asking LSF members for their input: GOOD

Trying to suppress conversation and sharing of opinions between LSF members: BAD
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 10:23 PM
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