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Old Mar 02, 2012, 12:35 PM
Pompano Hill Flyers
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Miami Lakes, Florida, USA
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"Attention LSF members" - discussion thread

This thread is for discussion of the Attention lsf members thread and related PDF document posted elsewhere on this forum. Unlike the other thread, this thread will remain open for discussion by RCGroups members.

Edit: Although this thread will remain open as promised, it might be better to join the discussion in the ALES forum instead. That thread is currently dominated by ALES fans who favor the rule change, which is no surprise since it's in their forum. Let them know what you think.






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Old Mar 02, 2012, 02:47 PM
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Russian Federation, Sakha, Yakutsk
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Personally, I feel that allowing propped aircraft into the LSF SAP program will cheapen it beyond belief. While there's 0% chance of 'cheating' in the SAP with a traditional (unpowered) sailplane, there's too many possible ways to do so with a powered craft.

If powered sailplanes ARE allowed, there should be a designator on the scorecard and if say level III is accomplished with a powered sailplane, there should be a 'p' or some other letter after the level III sticker on the plane.

I will be voting 'no' on the matter.
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 04:18 PM
Red Merle ALES
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United States, Mt, Helena
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Integrity.

I am a level III and where I have chosen to live I will never be able to use LSF again as it is currently written as in my lifetime I do not believe that there will ever be enough interest in obtaining the equipment and pilots who are interested in winch launched soaring.

With the advent of ALES I am now very optimistic that will change. We had several contests last year and there are over half a dozen ALES models, big competitive models being built this winter.

It would be quite obvious if someone started the motor, at least to the observer and he/she hen would not sign off the sheet as passing the goal.

Isn't it similar now to say a cross country flight that ended up 100' short that the observer would not agree to sign the the paperwork and make the pilot reflux the task.

What am I missing?

Curtis
Montana
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 04:32 PM
R2R
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Given that no cheating would be allowed by restarting a motor. I'm actually leaning towards allowing ALES because I see no logical reason why we can't consider ALES as just another type of launch equipment.

However, to play devil's advocate, I do feel that learning to launch well on a hi-start and a winch, or off a slope for that matter, is part of the set of skills needed to advance in SAP. So, my question to all in favor of ALES or have done ALES (because I have not): is there any particular skill involved in launching, gaining altitude on ALES? If not, then ALES completely circumvents a traditionally important part of soaring.
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 04:46 PM
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Bedford, TX
Joined Oct 2007
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I don't think cheating is the issue here as pride in accomplishment is what it is...there's nothing to gain but guilt in cheating. It does however, in my eyes, deminish what the program is about and it's back to being a purist. I'm only a level I pilot but intend to move forward with the SAP but this makes me wonder about that now.

LSF, League of Silent Flight, hmmm, never heard a silent e-powered sailplane, they're just as noisey as a stinkin park flyer.

I'll be voting no also.
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 04:58 PM
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So should winches be outlawed because they're louder than hi-starts? Or should we just set a noise threshold.

Your comment made me think though, what, if anything, do the rules say about aero-towing?

Jim
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Old Mar 02, 2012, 08:20 PM
Pompano Hill Flyers
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Miami Lakes, Florida, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GliderJim View Post
Your comment made me think though, what, if anything, do the rules say about aero-towing?
"Towing by means of aircraft or other airborne devices is expressly forbidden."

This is under Section 7 - Thermal Duration Flight.
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Old Mar 03, 2012, 07:19 AM
LSF 4685
Winchester, KY
Joined Sep 2009
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New Rules

I am a member of LSF, but I confess that I am not very active as flier or LSF level chaser. So perhaps I come to my opinion from a bit of apathy at the moment. I can draw an analogy between this modification to the rules and to the FCC's elimination of the morse code requirement for earning an amateur radio license. Ther was, and is a great current of opposition from the long time licensees very similar to what I sense is going on with LSF. A fear that the hobby will be cheapened, etc. To some extent that has been true. However, I have observed that our ham radio fraternity has gained a good number of good people who have come in since the "no-code" era began. They have enhanced our hobby, increased its numbers and thus have helped to ensure that the hobby continues into the future. Remarkably, some of them have discovered the joy of morse code, have learned it, and are quite proficient on the air. Thus, this "obsolete" mode will probably survive a few more years.

A parallel might be drawn with our R/C hobby. Nobody builds out of balsa and tissue paper any more. Many aircraft are molded foam. Glow engines are not the dominant means of power. Sailplanes have sprouted electric motors. By allowing launch with an electric motor, more people might participate in LSF. The point about winch vs high start is a valid one. I don't own or have access to a winch, but I feel that using a winch gives an advantage over a high start.

It might be argued in reverse that an electric motor would add a handicap... the extra weight, etc.

Bottom line for me is... I think this will add people to the active rolls of sailplaners, so I am not opposed to it.

Dave
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Old Mar 03, 2012, 09:33 AM
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Make it LESF, and I will say yes! (League of Electric Silent Flight).

Or LSFe. (League of Silent Flight electric).

Or LSFp, and let the internal combustion engines have a go at silent flight too.

But keep LSF a gliders class, please!
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Old Mar 03, 2012, 05:33 PM
Turn down for what?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudyIFR View Post
I am a level III and where I have chosen to live I will never be able to use LSF again as it is currently written as in my lifetime I do not believe that there will ever be enough interest in obtaining the equipment and pilots who are interested in winch launched soaring.
whatever seeds you plant will grow. If you can grow Ales you can grow Lagers or string.

Ryan
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Old Mar 03, 2012, 09:25 PM
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"Towing by means of aircraft or other airborne devices is expressly forbidden"

If you had to submit that sentence to a neutral party to define what it means, they would say:

it is two phrases, "towing by a: means of aircraft" or "towing by b: other airborne devices", is expressly forbidden.

The subject of the statement is "towing", remember your grammar classes

Gary
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 09:56 AM
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As I consider this, I keep coming back to a common conclusion. Why not create a equally challenging program for ALES?

I agree we need more folks in the hobby, and we should absolutely mind technology and trends.

All that said, as I begin my efforts towards level V, the tasks looks indeed challenging. Particularly the contest requirements. The 8 hour slope, 2 hr thermal duration, and the 10K will be a challenge, but with the help of my club mates, I fully expect to knock them out. The contest wins however is where we separate the men from the boys.

Now I've CD'ed a few ALES events here in Dallas. Fun to be sure, but the competition is nowhere as stiff in these events as the traditional TD events. ALES is attracting new pilots, we had 9 show up last week, it's not a stretch that we could pull together a group of 20 in the not too distant future. But the level of experience in the ALES events I've attended is far less than our average monthly CD event.

Bottom line, even if new rules permit me to count an ALES contest win (presuming that's what would be suggested) I will not, as it would cheapen the journey...

Dan in Dallas
Just another Level IV
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 10:44 AM
R2R
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Wow, great point to bring to the table, Hostage-46. I don't think much has been said about the contest wins element yet.

I too intend to do all my tasks and contests using a pure glider. So, despite my leaning toward inclusion of ALES in some way, I would prefer to have a separate ALES class/program.
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 08:10 PM
Pompano Hill Flyers
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Although this thread will remain open as promised, it might be better to join the discussion in the ALES forum instead. That thread is currently dominated by ALES fans who favor the rule change, which is no surprise since it's in their forum. Let them know what you think.
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Old Mar 05, 2012, 12:47 PM
JimN8UAY
United States, OH, Medina
Joined Oct 2004
588 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudyIFR View Post
Integrity.

I am a level III and where I have chosen to live I will never be able to use LSF again as it is currently written as in my lifetime I do not believe that there will ever be enough interest in obtaining the equipment and pilots who are interested in winch launched soaring.

With the advent of ALES I am now very optimistic that will change. We had several contests last year and there are over half a dozen ALES models, big competitive models being built this winter...

Curtis
Montana
Hi Curtis,
I certainly understand your dilemma and in my locale I, too, need to travel, as much as 5 hours away to find any contests of 20 or more pilots for Level IV/V. Especially with my choice of a career I will probably not be able to attain these achievements, either, be it in conventional LSF soaring or an E-soaring program. But that's my dilemma. It is what it is. It doesn't mean I don't love soaring as much or more than the other guy, it just is how life is for me. So, to make it more convenient for me, I don't believe the program should be changed.

It is wonderful that you have a resurgence in popularity with E-soaring as you have, and I know it will pick up in our clubs...someday! But, I believe, a new SAP geared towards the ALES/F5J should be introduced and kept separate from the conventional string/hand launch. Let it stay and honor it for it's past (and present for those who can and will continue!). I think a new SAP under the banner of the LSF (League of SOARING Flight, as I saw referenced earlier, sounds good!) would be a great addition and I would just as proudly display next to my Level III stickers. I would have no problem starting the journey over from Level I for a new SAP and would excitedly welcome the chance to do so.

Thanks for your insights and achievements and some wonderful DVDs.

Blue skies!

Jim
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