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Old Mar 04, 2012, 09:57 AM
I'm all about that bass
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Deck View Post

One last thought for those clamoring for a separate E-SAP: Partisanship has severely damaged our government. I, for one, would not like to see it damage our hobby.
If the LSF is to be the SIG for electric sailplanes then we should not just focus on ALES. Ales is cool but there is more to electric gliders than just Ales.

There should be an achievement program that goes outside the SAP box. "winch in the nose" is great but it is just one avenue. I have been flying electric sailplanes for over 10 years now and think other aspects of electric sailplanes should be also encouraged.

Ryan
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 10:01 AM
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Larry Jolly's Avatar
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Don and Ian,
I know both of you and respect your opinions. If I read your responses properly you are not in favor of an Achievement Program specifically for E powered Gliders. And that you felt that using an ALES model you would be more inclined to finish up your current SAP's. I didn't follow that train of thought.
I would have thought you might jump at the opportunity to have a program tailored just for these models . Thinking about it the Tasks for the original SAP are dated and were more challenging when thye were established. I for one would like to have a new challenge that an ESAP could deliver. The original SAP was designed to act as a primer in all aspects sailplane flying. The ESAP should be designed the same way so that all aspects of this branch of the hobby should be utilised. Tasks should also be a bit more challenging to make use of the improvements in the perfomance of todays designs. And since there was no International contests when the original SAP was installed, why not have a Level 6 for ESAP for say 3 National titles in ESailplane Competition, and a podium finish for an F5J world champs.
I thought about this last night and thought this new ESAP would be a great avenue for old level V's like myself. By design it should be a little different and definitely more interersting than sitting on a slope for 8 hours.....
Joe thanks for jumping in, your input is always interesting, as is your support of the current SAP that has been previously documented. See you in Cyprus!!
LJ
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 10:46 AM
I'm all about that bass
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Jolly View Post
I thought about this last night and thought this new ESAP would be a great avenue for old level V's like myself. By design it should be a little different and definitely more interersting than sitting on a slope for 8 hours.....
I think an e sap should be outside the box and not just ales. Like the last sap it should have stuff at the high level nobody has done before.

Here is my contributiom: you get 3000 mah capacity to do a dawn till dusk flight.

Ryan
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 10:59 AM
Dave Register
okiesoar's Avatar
Bartlesville, OK
Joined Jul 2004
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Originally Posted by Larry Jolly View Post
Don and Ian,
..... And since there was no International contests when the original SAP was installed, why not have a Level 6 for ESAP for say 3 National titles in ESailplane Competition, and a podium finish for an F5J world champs......
LJ
Hmm.

So one more NATS to go and then an F5J podium?

I'm in.

- D
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 11:04 AM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Jolly View Post
Don and Ian,
I know both of you and rspect your opinions. If I read your respnses properly you are not in favor of an Achievement Program specifically for E powered Gliders. And you felt that using an ALES model you would be more inclined to finish up your current SAP's. I didn't follow that train of thought.
I would have thought you might jump at the opportunity to have a program tailored just for these models . Thinking about it the Tasks for the original SAP are dated and were more challenging when thye were established. I for one would like to have a new challenge that an ESAP could deliver. The original SAP was designed to act as a primer in all aspects sailplane flying. The ESAP should be designed the same way so that all aspects of this branch of the hobby should be utilised. Tasks should also be a bit more challenging to make use of the improvements in the perfomance of todays designs. And since there was no International contests when the original SAP was installed, why not have a Level 6 for ESAP for say 3 National titles in ESailplane Competition, and a podium finish for an F5J world champs.

I thought about this last night and thought this new ESAP would be a great avenue for old level V's like myself. By design it should be a little different and definitely more interersting than sitting on a slope for 8 hours.....
Joe thanks for jumping in, your input is always interesting, as is your support of the current SAP that has been previously documented. See you in Cyprus!!
LJ
Larry,

You read a lot more into my writings than I ever said. I do not believe that I ever stated that I was opposed to a separate SAP program for electric powered gliders. If I did, please let me retract those words. I am absolutely indifferent as to whether an SAP that would include electric powered gliders would be established by rolling electric powered gliders into the current LSF SAP program or by developing a separate SAP program for electric gliders under the LSF "tent". I do believe very strongly that whatever the structure of the SAP program, that there are synergies which can benefit both traditional soaring activities and electric soaring activities by having the "Electric SAP" inside the LSF "tent". Besides the fact that many LSF members already have an active interest in electric soaring, the LSF already has its toe inside the Electric Soaring tent as its SIG vis a vis the AMA. As such, it is playing the leading role in the development of esoaring rules. And, as such it will have a duty to people who are interested in ensuring that the USA ultimately has an international presence in electric soaring will be looking to our SIG fulfilling its responsibility in supporting those activities.

Larry, I am a little put off by your inference that I want electric soaring to be rolled into the current LSF SAP as an "easy path" to completing my traditional Level V. Respectfully, that is pure crap. My best flying days are long past. I have successfully competed in a wide variety of sports all of my life -- I have literally tossed out boxes and boxes of trophies for activities in a variety of undertakings that are long forgotten. I compete for the sport of it and the camaraderie. I don't have any compulsion whatsoever to prove anything to anybody. I am retired and I am a charter member of the Honey Badgers.

That being said, my interest in an SAP that somehow includes electric soaring is that I like flying AND I like socializing. And I know from personal experience that a thoughtful SAP can be very effective in bringing and keeping like minded people together. I know from personal experience that the LSF -- especially when the sport was new -- played an important role in expanding the relevance of soaring clubs. I don't give a crap whether I ever earn the right to stick another Roman Numeral on another airplane. I would like to regain some of the spirit that permeated the sport "the first time around." I would like to regain the feeling of real accomplishment that comes from helping others discover and enjoy what I have been doing since my dad bought me my first Guillows III ukie trainer. I do not want to be the last guy to leave the room and turn the lights out. You see a different world than a lot of the rest of us. For all intents and purposes you still have most of the soaring world that you've ever had. A lot of us have seen ours fade to extinction. Nobody expects you and similarly situated people to give up anything to bring our world back a bit. But the "go away and do your own thing" attitude that several contributors have suggested here seems to me to be a little beneath the dignity of true sportsmen.

I said earlier that I am not a "process guy" even though I respect process. I am a guy who became modestly prosperous (and who made a buttload of money for the people I worked for and with) by ignoring the words "can't" and "shouldn't". The world has almost as many crackers who can sit in the cheap seats and tell you with certainty what can't work as the world has people with navels. The best ideas, even on the subject of an SAP for electric soaring, have not yet been thunk. Let's work together to think them up.

I appreciate your thoughtful comments.

Happy Landings,

Don Harban
LSF #2763
Level IV
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 11:23 AM
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Dear Don,
Thanks for straightening me out...I am not taking shots at you or anyone else. I respectifully read your post and was interested in dialogue, and further explanation. I am puzzeled why only ALES instead of other forms of Electric powered gliders are being considered. I am sure you know that F5J is coming quickly and I expect that LSF will have to do its best to promote F5J as it does F3B and F3J. I am very interested in Electric flight my background in this area is well known, and I have an interest in promoting a seperate ESAP tailored to encompass all Electric Gliders and allow for an updated format that favors modern airframes. I see from your response you have your mind made up and are emotionally involved so I shall refrain from referring to you directly in any further posts. It would be really super if you had commented on my suggestions, as I was interested in your thoughts. Larry
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 11:38 AM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Jolly View Post
Dear Don,
Thanks for straightening me out...I am not taking shots at you or anyone else. I respectifully read your post and was interested in dialogue, and further explanation. I am puzzeled why only ALES instead of other forms of Electric powered gliders are being considered. I am very interested in Electric flight my background in this area is well known, and I have an interest in promoting a seperate ESAP tailored to encompass all Electric Gliders and allow for an updated format that favors modern airframes. I see from your response you have your mind made up and are emotionally involved so I shall refrain from referring to you directly in any further posts. It would be really super if you had commented on my suggestions, as I was interested in your thoughts. Larry
I guess, I didn't interpret ALES to mean planes that only fly under ALES rules. That is my oversight. And that would be unfortunate given the broad range of possibilities that electric powered planes present us. (In that vein, I would remind you that I am the one who is assembling an F5J contest kit to allow interest groups a chance to try it out.)

To clear the air a bit, the only "emotional" attachment I have to anything is the notion of some sort of SAP for electric powered sailplanes in some sort of affiliation with the LSF. Nothing more or nothing less. OTHER THAN THAT, MY MIND IS NOT MADE UP ON ANYTHING.

Larry, your suggestions and observations are great. If you interpreted my responses as blowing you off, I apologize. Whether we ever agree on anything (which would probably be a little unusual), it is certainly an honor to have you refer to me. And I can assure you that I truly respect your comments and your stature in the soaring community.

We can be friends, you know. I think we are seeking the same things.

Happy Landings,

Don
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 11:42 AM
LSF303 / AMA Life Member
tkallev's Avatar
USA, IL, Wheeling
Joined Jan 2003
3,170 Posts
ALES is only being discussed here because the premise is that it's JAFLM (Just Another Freakin' Launching Method).

Should it come to pass that the Electric Launch segment is best served with an achievement program of its own, would you, Larry, take part in the drafting of the program? I'll sit at the table with you ... I think I know a few others who would love the challenge.

tom
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 11:46 AM
I'm all about that bass
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Jolly View Post
. I am puzzeled why only ALES instead of other forms of Electric powered gliders are being considered. I am sure you know that F5J is coming quickly and I expect that LSF will have to do its best to promote F5J as it does F3B and F3J. I am very interested in Electric flight my background in this area is well known, and I have an interest in promoting a seperate ESAP tailored to encompass all Electric Gliders and allow for an updated format that favors modern airframes.
+1

Ryan
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 11:50 AM
I'm all about that bass
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
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Originally Posted by dharban View Post
I guess, I didn't interpret ALES to mean planes that only fly under ALES rules.
In the past when I have suggested that ales could be things other than NAts rules ales I have been given the beat down. That's why I invented my alternative to ales: LAGERS.

Ryan
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 11:51 AM
I'm all about that bass
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
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Originally Posted by tkallev View Post
Should it come to pass that the Electric Launch segment is best served with an achievement program of its own, would you, Larry, take part in the drafting of the program?
I would definitely be interested in being involved. I have been flying electric sailplanes for over a decade now.

Ryan
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 12:21 PM
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Joined Oct 2003
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Tom,
I will serve the LSF in any capacity, I believe We have had this discussion before.
You know I am a little nostalgic about my life in the Hobby. Something you and I share. I am not just arguing for me, but for Dan, Lee and the others that came before us.... I have had nothing but wonderful experinces with the friends I have made around the world on this journey. I want everyone to have their say and the LSF to be stronger for it. And yes I fly Electric a bunch and intend to compete in F5J and Ales contests for as long as I am able.
I want an ESAP designed by experienced modelers to keep it interesting and viable as a scope of ones skills and determination as he progresses in the Hobby.

SO YES sign me up,,,,, I want to start my level one ESAP next week...I gotta get a head start on Gordy....
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 02:24 PM
Good for what ALES you
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United States, CA, Novato
Joined Jan 2009
458 Posts
The current SAP is already broken down into five specific skill areas. Thermal Duration, Slope Duration, Precision Spot Landing, Goal & Return, and Competition. Are there specific examples of flying skills that are different for e-flyers, and if not, why create a distinction?

The SAP rules originally required a towline for TD launch with specifically listed power options including winch, hi-start, towmen, and even vehicles. Clearly there was an understanding that a variety of methods needed to be available for getting your aircraft to launch altitude. The hand-launch community set out to prove that even a towline wasn't necessary.

The task is Thermal Duration Flight, or as Section 7 of the SAP states, "The flight shall be deemed a thermal duration flight if, ...the lift being used to remain aloft is primarily attributable to thermal activity". The focus of the task is to ensure that a pilot becomes a proficient thermal flyer. The restrictions at the start of Section 7 are there to put a box around the altitude you begin with, but the task doesn't start until release from the towline.
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 03:32 PM
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Crestview, Florida
Joined Dec 2005
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How would you resolve the issue of launch direction?

Here's the problem in a contest. If there's evidence of a strong thermal directly behind the launch line an ALES plane can turn immediately and speed in that direction. All winch launched birds must launch at least some distance into the wind to gain a competitive height. Or, if it's not specified in the rules it could be launched to the rear directly into the thermal!!
Calling it a winch in the nose is oversimplifying the nuances that will arise in practice.
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Old Mar 04, 2012, 03:34 PM
I'm all about that bass
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
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For a mixed winch/ALES contest the same way that you handle no fly zones , low flying over the pits, or landing zone requirements. You announce at the pilots meeting that ALES launching needs to be done parallel to the winch lines and try to enforce/observe it as best you can.

Ryan
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