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Old Feb 28, 2012, 03:36 AM
ich bauen groß modell flugzeug
Keenan smith's Avatar
United Kingdom, London
Joined Dec 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chochmah View Post
LuvEvolution

I'm not outright saying it can't be done, I'm sure, if given a budget of a couple of thousands and two years time Dag, You or some of the other Top of the Line builders here could certainly succeed with a project like this. Others have already done it. I'm just saying it can't be done by him and like this.

For example, I just don't get this:

ESC+BAT+MOT+EDF > 768gr times 6 = 4608gr
10 32gr Servos = 320 gr
-------------------------
ca. 5KG For electrics, that's without retracts or any landing gear and also without the copper wire extensions for the edfs which are very heavy. It's without the additional electrics you will need to power your servos (you're not planing to run 10 heavy duty servo from one HK receiver, do you).
So, that's a unreasonably optimistic weight estimate.

Usual wisdom is that you have to spend at least the weight of the electrics for the structure, makes 10KG Ready to Fly if you manage to build ultra light which is very unrealistic because you have to be able to take a plane that size apart for transport which means that you need hard points to join the section and reinforcements to propagate the forces inside the structure.

When I put a potentiometer, or cell phone for that purpose, inside one of my models and fly a couple of very gentle traffic patterns it usually shows G-Forces in Excess of 3G in flight and even more for my landings.

Let's say 4G. Thats a stress of 400N or about 40KG that your ultra light depron structure has to handle, that your joints have to handle. That you have to propagate from the Wing (center of Mass) to the HStab.... c'mon...

Oh, and if you really succeed in building a project that's more something that one would tackle to crown a long modeling career than it is a suitable first scratchbuild, if you succeed, you have a very expensive model with lot's and lot's of manhours in it. Would you really thrust 10$ HK Servos, a cheap receiver and a Radio from the bottom of the line with that model?
Nope, nobody in his right mind would. Means if you are serious you can invest a couple of thousands in a radio, receiver and good servos right now.

I would love to see the UltraLight AN225 with six 12 Blade Fans do takeoffs and landings like AirBuzz's and Nefwaffe's jet do but I don't see how this is supposed to work.

If you disagree, please show me how it can be done.

cheers, choch

p.S.: Oh, and you expect to order 12 EDF /ESC /Motos from HK and receive them all in working condition? Your budget is unrealistic for that reason alone.
actually i was going to upgrade the esc's to the 100A turnigy Dlux's and i was going to use the more expensive motors from my local hobby store !
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ontroller.html
BTW Why do you always seem to doubt my abilities
i take on project to challenge my self so i can bring up my already low self esteem and all you seem to do is to tear me down!.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demondriver View Post
Keenan I'm going to give you The answer, the only real way you will be able to build your An-225 I want you to follow this link, and you will enter a world, of Russian Card model builders.

Study & talk to EtekRLS, K if you build your An-225 the same way he's building his paper version you CAN'T Loose!

http://only-paper.ru/forum/28-3899-1

Now get building Lol
mates are coming round tomorrow!
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Originally Posted by demondriver View Post
O.K. K there's your An-225 wingbox structure add some carbon fiber & whalla!

What your not done yet Lol-LMAO!
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Originally Posted by demondriver View Post
K And have a chat with this guy Hideki , just tell him your building something twice as big! lol
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Originally Posted by demondriver View Post
Here are some more goodies . . . . .. have these plans blown up & enlarged K.
awsome where'd ya find those?? i spent 3 hours looking for some !
Quote:
Originally Posted by demondriver View Post
Keenan I have formulated a inexspensive way to build your first An-225, I call it "Modular building", simply build your An-225 one section at a time that way you only need to buy the depron & carbon fiber you need to complete each section as you build it, for example if you try and buy all materials at once it will cost you $500-700 pounds sterling but if you build starting with the nose it might only cost $60-70 pounds to start.
I Agree!

k if you do this wrong I'm affraid it will be VERY hard to find the Ca$h you'll need to build your 2 An-225's.

For example each one of your An-225's will need as much Depron that I will use to build all 8 of My MD-80's

K look at the schematic I drew up for you & see if it will work for you.
I will follow that to the hour! but with my quick building and a card model for plans i'd say 3 weeks instead of a month!
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 03:48 AM
ich bauen groß modell flugzeug
Keenan smith's Avatar
United Kingdom, London
Joined Dec 2010
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couldn't find the plans on the russian site ill look on this one i found

http://www.kartonbau.de/forum/index....threadID=26458
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 04:30 AM
Up-Out-&-Gone
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Charelston SC U.S.A.
Joined Mar 2007
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Originally Posted by k.smith459 View Post
couldn't find the plans on the russian site ill look on this one i found

http://www.kartonbau.de/forum/index....threadID=26458
Thats the one mate! follow those instructions K and You'll be on your way!
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 08:07 AM
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Joined Feb 2010
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cool K nice find.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 12:33 PM
ich bauen groß modell flugzeug
Keenan smith's Avatar
United Kingdom, London
Joined Dec 2010
6,830 Posts
your welcome what did you think of the 787 Dreamliner?
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 01:07 PM
Build to Fly? FLY to BUILD!
Legot's Avatar
United States, AZ, Gilbert
Joined Nov 2009
1,104 Posts
Rant

I just have to say some things about this post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chochmah View Post
LuvEvolution

I'm not outright saying it can't be done, I'm sure, if given a budget of a couple of thousands and two years time Dag, You or some of the other Top of the Line builders here could certainly succeed with a project like this. Others have already done it. I'm just saying it can't be done by him and like this.

I'm sure he can, and even if he fails, he'll learn something. Everyone in this hobby starts somewhere, and builders start somewhere too.

For example, I just don't get this:

ESC+BAT+MOT+EDF > 768gr times 6 = 4608gr
10 32gr Servos = 320 gr
-------------------------
ca. 5KG For electrics, that's without retracts or any landing gear and also without the copper wire extensions for the edfs which are very heavy. It's without the additional electrics you will need to power your servos (you're not planing to run 10 heavy duty servo from one HK receiver, do you).
So, that's a unreasonably optimistic weight estimate.

Usual wisdom is that you have to spend at least the weight of the electrics for the structure, makes 10KG Ready to Fly if you manage to build ultra light which is very unrealistic because you have to be able to take a plane that size apart for transport which means that you need hard points to join the section and reinforcements to propagate the forces inside the structure.
You've got to be kidding me. If this planes ends up 10kg that would be freaking fantastic! True it is an optimistic guess, but even 15kg would be great for this plane! First of all, I don't think you realize how big the prospected wingspan is, nor do you seem to understand the type of aircraft this is.

When I put a potentiometer, or cell phone for that purpose, inside one of my models and fly a couple of very gentle traffic patterns it usually shows G-Forces in Excess of 3G in flight and even more for my landings.
What are you on about? 3g's? what do you consider a gentle traffic pattern? Bank'n'Yank as we call it is not all too gentle. Unless you are doing some intense aerobatics, super tight turns, or generally flying like crap with massive control surfaces you won't pull that many g's.
Let's say 4G. Thats a stress of 400N or about 40KG that your ultra light depron structure has to handle, that your joints have to handle. That you have to propagate from the Wing (center of Mass) to the HStab.... c'mon...
Let me guess, you failed physics in high school? You need to take into account turning radius, no matter what axis you're on. In other words, It matters how hard you pull the plane.

Oh, and if you really succeed in building a project that's more something that one would tackle to crown a long modeling career than it is a suitable first scratchbuild, if you succeed, you have a very expensive model with lot's and lot's of manhours in it. Would you really thrust 10$ HK Servos, a cheap receiver and a Radio from the bottom of the line with that model?
Nope, nobody in his right mind would. Means if you are serious you can invest a couple of thousands in a radio, receiver and good servos right now.
I agree with a good radio (I don't know what you're flying now k.)

I would love to see the UltraLight AN225 with six 12 Blade Fans do takeoffs and landings like AirBuzz's and Nefwaffe's jet do but I don't see how this is supposed to work.
It doesn't have to land like them, and as long as it's powered right, pilot skill is the only thing that will make a landing good or bad.

If you disagree, please show me how it can be done.

cheers, choch

p.S.: Oh, and you expect to order 12 EDF /ESC /Motos from HK and receive them all in working condition? Your budget is unrealistic for that reason alone.
From what I've seen on you're posts, you're a pretty good scratchbuilder Choch, where did you begin? I would assume that you're first was slightly overambitious, and I have to say, sorry for the rant but you're kind of being a massive killjoy.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 01:14 PM
ich bauen groß modell flugzeug
Keenan smith's Avatar
United Kingdom, London
Joined Dec 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legot View Post
I just have to say some things about this post.

From what I've seen on you're posts, you're a pretty good scratchbuilder Choch, where did you begin? I would assume that you're first was slightly overambitious, and I have to say, sorry for the rant but you're kind of being a massive killjoy.
Agreed
but then again he's German so what do you expect ( everything must be done perfectly! )
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 02:05 PM
HappyGoLucky
chochmah's Avatar
Germany, BW, Ibach
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.smith459 View Post
..
I read through what I said on the first pages of this thread and I would like to apologize to you keenan. What I said was rude although I actually did not intend to be rude, more like discouraging. I'm truly sorry about that.
However, I stand by what I said in my last post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Legot View Post
I'm sure he can, and even if he fails, he'll learn something.
And I'm sure you would bet money on that if you where a betting man which, of cause, you aren't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legot View Post
You've got to be kidding me. If this planes ends up 10kg that would be freaking fantastic!
I wrote several times that this is a unrealistic best case estimate, where's your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legot View Post
What are you on about? 3g's? What do you consider a gentle traffic pattern?
So how many g's do you pull? How many g's does your Accelerometer (I mistakenly first wrote Potentiometer, translation error) show when you're flying gently? Perhaps hit a gust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legot View Post
where did you begin? I would assume that you're first was slightly overambitious
Slightly? That's putting it mildly. But I'm usually not completely loosing touch to reality. I just saw that he's also offering his services to build gas and turbine (sic!) planes for paying customers. On which level of reality are we supposed to be operating here?

Being subject to over-ambitiousness offers me some insight here. I too would like to build some projects that are way over my head. And I would like to start them all right now, all twenty of them. But I know that this is not a good and promising way to operate so I pace myself and that's what I was trying to tell kennan. "Pace yourself, do one project at the time, start with smaller, yet challenging projects so your learning curve does not get too steep."

That said, I wish you the best of luck with this project kennan. I'm not seeing how it can be done in this way but there's a lot I don't understand and maybe that's just one of those things.


cheers coch
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 02:16 PM
Build to Fly? FLY to BUILD!
Legot's Avatar
United States, AZ, Gilbert
Joined Nov 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chochmah View Post
I read through what I said on the first pages of this thread and I would like to apologize to you keenan. What I said was rude although I actually did not intend to be rude, more like discouraging. I'm truly sorry about that.
However, I stand by what I said in my last post.

I wrote several times that this is a unrealistic best case estimate, where's your point?

So how many g's do you pull? How many g's does your Accelerometer (I mistakenly first wrote Potentiometer, translation error) show when you're flying gently? Perhaps hit a gust?

Slightly? That's putting it mildly. But I'm usually not completely loosing touch to reality. I just saw that he's also offering his services to build gas and turbine (sic!) planes for paying customers. On which level of reality are we supposed to be operating here?
cheers coch
Don't worry about translation, I understood what you meant by potentiometer
How did you get an accelerometer logger (?) that on your phone? Is it an app?

My point with 10kg being great was in the next two sentences, when I recognized that it was optimistic.

I haven't looked to see if it's true but If you really are offering building services for anything Keenan, don't. Not yet at least, get some more experience, finish a few more of your (admittedly cool) projects.

And looking beyond this, Choch does have an excellent point. It is definitely better to finish some of the smaller ones first, even if you rush through them. Every model you build makes you better, but if you finish, you get that great feeling of success and new skill.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 02:26 PM
Shade Tree Aviation #2
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United States, NC, Rutherfordton
Joined Jan 2002
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Sometimes we learn more from our mistakes than our successes.

I think it's great that someone this young is this excited about tackling a project like this. He is probably way over optimistic about the outcome, but that's the great thing about being a youth. Young people can dream big with optimism because failure is a stranger to most of them. He will learn from his mistakes and apply this knowledge to future projects. Let's don't kill his enthusiasm.

Best of luck on your build...
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 02:31 PM
ich bauen groß modell flugzeug
Keenan smith's Avatar
United Kingdom, London
Joined Dec 2010
6,830 Posts
i dont need a flying saucer with all the gizmo's all i need is a model that flies (preferably well)
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 02:49 PM
HappyGoLucky
chochmah's Avatar
Germany, BW, Ibach
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legot View Post
Don't worry about translation, I understood what you meant by potentiometer
How did you get an accelerometer logger (?) that on your phone? Is it an app?
Yup, it is an app, it's called Seismograph / Accelerometer and it plots pretty nice curves for all three axes. As far as I can tell the output is close to reality. I'm using it on a Nokia N8 (Symbian) but I'm sure similar apps exist for android/ios/winfone.

I was surprised myself how much stress my little foam plane has to endure especially compared to the real thing where 3G would certainly not go unnoticed.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 02:53 PM
ich bauen groß modell flugzeug
Keenan smith's Avatar
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gonna have to download that app
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 02:54 PM
ich bauen groß modell flugzeug
Keenan smith's Avatar
United Kingdom, London
Joined Dec 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chochmah View Post
Yup, it is an app, it's called Seismograph / Accelerometer and it plots pretty nice curves for all three axes. As far as I can tell the output is close to reality. I'm using it on a Nokia N8 (Symbian) but I'm sure similar apps exist for android/ios/winfone.

I was surprised myself how much stress my little foam plane has to endure especially compared to the real thing where 3G would certainly not go unnoticed.
BTW apology accepted
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