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Old Feb 22, 2012, 08:40 AM
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Be it moral right or not, bible is against suicide so yes the scriptures do say that, however i do not think he was referring to you as a human beying, if u read the sentence again it will make sense.

As for animal>=human thats just absurd and its because of overpowered comments like these that ppl are still killing living beyings for pleasure while calling it sport, property invasion while it was clearly on a public zone, complaining of drones flying and totally ignoring the fact that guns have been fired in the same dangerous conditions and so on...

As for animals beying considered vermins that makes me lol, just because theres a chance an animal is infected it doesnt make it right to shoot it for sport, one thing is to kill for food and another thing is to kill for fun.
I could go further and ask you where do you think they got those diseases in the first place and what do you have to say about dogs, cats, seagulls and a number of other species which search in trashcans aswell? It is a clearly idiotic way of labeling a whole species.
Especially if you own one of those labeled species as a pet, and you let it fly around just to find it dead in the next day in a park because some really smart guy decided to have a blast to feel more manly even though they were vaccinated and health monitored ...

Thats what i understood it happened, maybe i got it wrong, maybe they werent shooting in the public and maybe the rc drone was bothering a few number of people in the public highway, but i didnt read nothing like that so...
The fact that they were shooting in public is much more dangerous than doing a research based on pidgeon with a drone.

2 biased sides will not do anything good in a conversation, just because animals are not equal to humans it doesnt mean they arent alive, they cant feel pain, they dont get diseased, they are not hungry and so on.
IF you go to act like an animal and do anything just for the thrill and then expect people to treat you as human i believe you will be dissapointed.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 09:09 AM
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Says who? scripture? Humans have every right to take their own lives.
No it's just the logical/illogical end to the preposterous animal rights position. Should we be cruel? Is it right to half-kill pigeons and toss 'em in a pile with the dead ones? Of course not! Ask a deer hunter what he thinks of that. He'd be furious. I've seen deer hunters castigate a fellow hunter who took a shot from too far away, even though he got a clean kill, because there was too much of a chance of merely wounding the animal and making him suffer excessively.

You're spot on with criticism of that specific treatment. It's not reasonable. I don't have a problem with them shooting the pigeons. I do have a problem with letting them linger and die when only wounded. I think the greatest and most effective pressure to correct that would come from the gun community. These tree huggers are rightly considered a poor joke. There is just no reason to listen to or respect their prattling. Their naive and foolish antics serve to continue real abuses because they make such fools of themselves nothing they say can be credited as correct. But like a stopped watch, they are exactly right once in awhile.

Animals have no rights because they have no sentience to claim them. It is human beings who have the right or do not have the right to be cruel to animals. We have decided that humans do not have the right. Now it is up to us to sort out the messy details of what will be called cruel and what will be permitted. But the right belongs to people, not the animals, because people have to act accordingly.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Gerry__ View Post
Says who? scripture? Humans have every right to take their own lives.
You can kill yourself, but not a diseased bird? Are they on the same level as humans? I sure hope you aren't pro abortion with your "cruelty" statements. I'd like to think my cognative ability makes my life a little more important that fowl, or sewer rats, or sheep. Nah, I'm just a crazed religious fanatic for thinking that! It's called survival of the fittest. Earlier in this thread you make a comment about someone dying from coming into contact with diseased poop, and praised evolution. Well killing off something that can kill us sounds kinda like evolution at work. A falcon can kill the bird and eat it alive, or it can get blasted with a shotgun, and possibly not die immediatly. What's it matter to the pidgeon, he's screwed either way. Should they let the bird die slowly? Hell no. Now I can't say I would ever participate in something like this, but I'm not gunna pretend that some overpopulated bird's life is as precious as a humans. I really wouldn't even go hunting, I can't kill an animal in good conscience. I had a raccoon run out infront of my car one night, and it didn't die, but it was mortally wounded, it was dying slowly. I had to kill it to "put it out of it's miserey". No gun, it was 11pm by a house with children. No knife, I couldn't get that close. Killing that coon in the brutal way I had to was by far the hardest thing I've ever done, I cried for that damn thing. I could never hunt after that. BUT, I still won't pretend I committed murder on a being equal with me.

Here's another for ya'll. In some places deer are so overpopulated that they pose a significant safety threat to drivers on a daily basis. Do you go out and shoot the extra deer, and save human lives, or do you let them run rampant and let humans die? Which way is the survival of the fittest? I guess what we really should do is neuter those deer, or at least make condoms readily available for them. That's probably what peta would propose, if their letting humans die instead proposal didn't work.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by srt8madness View Post
You can kill yourself, but not a diseased bird? Are they on the same level as humans? I sure hope you aren't pro abortion with your "cruelty" statements. I'd like to think my cognative ability makes my life a little more important that fowl, or sewer rats, or sheep. Nah, I'm just a crazed religious fanatic for thinking that! It's called survival of the fittest. Earlier in this thread you make a comment about someone dying from coming into contact with diseased poop, and praised evolution. Well killing off something that can kill us sounds kinda like evolution at work. A falcon can kill the bird and eat it alive, or it can get blasted with a shotgun, and possibly not die immediatly. What's it matter to the pidgeon, he's screwed either way. Now I can't say I would ever participate in something like this, but I'm not gunna pretend that some overpopulated bird's life is as precious as a humans.

Here's another for ya'll. In some places deer are so overpopulated that they pose a significant safety threat to drivers on a daily basis. Do you go out and shoot the extra deer, and save human lives, or do you let them run rampant and let humans die? Which way is the survival of the fittest? I guess what we really should do is neuter those deer, or at least make condoms readily available for them. That's probably what peta would propose, if their letting humans die instead proposal didn't work.
When you've killed all the pigeons on the planet, what next? All the blue whales?

There really are too many humans too and they spread disease. What do you want to do about them.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:50 AM
buyer of the farm
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Heck, those humans fly RC planes in parks where they could hurt a pigeon. Kill them all!
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 11:16 AM
whiirrrrrr
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When you've killed all the pigeons on the planet, what next? All the blue whales?

There really are too many humans too and they spread disease. What do you want to do about them.
See, you're taking it to the extreme, pidgeons aren't at risk of going extict. Although, it is worth noting humans have killed off many species in the past, but we have safeguards against doing that again, in the US at least. And they aren't crazy peta like organizations that are protecting them. It's people like game wardens catching poachers. ANYWAY, as far as humans, this is where condoms & birth control come in. Abortion isn't birth control. Killing a baby in the 3rd trimester(legal in the US) is murder. But blocking those lil swimmers from getting there in the first place is a fantastic idea. Unfortunatly, due to the catholic church and some super conservatives, we can't even get enough condoms to Americans, much less poor countries like mexico, or overpopulated like India. We can't teach about it in our schools because we don't want to "expose" children to sex at too young of an age.
I'm sure I would be painted a conservative for being a Christian, but I far from agree with right wing agendas, especially on sex eduation. But not abortion, we are like minded in that.

As far as disease, we have scientist working on things like that, and have come so much farther than imaginable even 100 years ago. Animals can't develop a medicine for heartworms, or a rabies vaccination. Those kind of things separate us from the beast.

I'll agree with you all day long that letting a wounded animal die is cruel. I do have to wonder how many actually survive their wounds long enough to hit the ground though.

And those pesky Japanese are already going after the whales!! But they are way behind, killing whales is soooo 1800's
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 11:45 AM
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One more for Lnagel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54WMpVDDiII
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 11:50 AM
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You don't respect all living things then? You don't think pigeons deserve to be culled humanely?
That's true. I don't respect all living things, rats and cockroaches among them. I am particulary not fond of entamoeba histolitica which made me ver sick one. I have no idea how to cull a pidgeon humanely but it is fine with me if that's what you want to do.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 12:00 PM
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That's true. I don't respect all living things, rats and cockroaches among them. I am particulary not fond of entamoeba histolitica which made me ver sick one. I have no idea how to cull a pidgeon humanely but it is fine with me if that's what you want to do.
One shot one kill is the way to cull a pigeon or an other pest.

Pests need to be controlled and it falls to the tiniest forms of life on the planet, like entamoeba histolitica, to control the biggest pest of all.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 12:04 PM
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Animals do have rights in all civilised countries. I've done some pest control and there is a right way and a wrong way to do it.
Perhaps we should reveiw what a right is. There are two requirements for a right. The first is that the person (not animal) understand what that right is. The second is that, for a person to exercise that right, nobody else has to give anything up. If it doesn't meet those definitions, then it is a privilege, not a right. A right is something like the right to free speech. It doesn't harm anyone when the right it exercised and the people exercising it understand what they are doing. Animals do not have rights. They operate on instinct not on careful thought.

Let me give you an example of animal exploitation that really bothers me. I see TV shows often that depict scientists trapping or drugging animals and then implanting tracking devices on them. That bothers me quite a bit. I think the scientists should observe them and photograph them and, otherwise, leave them alone. I hate zoos. I don't like the idea of incarcerating wild animals.

For me the death of a pidgeon at the hands of a shotgunner is no different than the death of a pidgeon at the hands of a red tail hawk. You can make the case that the hawk doesn't waste the bird carcasss, if you like. Then you would have to despise my wife's cats who often go into the field and find and kill animals only to retreive them and dump them in front of the door uneaten. It is nature at work and we humans, despite your dislike of our power and numbers, are part of nature.

And, yes, it is also fine by me if animals are killed for their skin or fur.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 12:06 PM
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Perhaps we should reveiw what a right is. There are two requirements for a right. The first is that the person (not animal) understand what that right is. .
Right, so, the servilely mentally handicapped shouldn't have rights?
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 12:07 PM
fmw
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One shot one kill is the way to cull a pigeon or an other pest.

Pests need to be controlled and it falls to the tiniest forms of life on the planet, like entamoeba histolitica, to control the biggest pest of all.
My, how strange it is to hate your owns species. That is really radical.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 12:08 PM
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Right, so, the servilely mentally handicapped shouldn't have rights?
They have the same rights as other humans, whether they exercise them or not.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 12:13 PM
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For me the death of a pidgeon at the hands of a shotgunner is no different than the death of a pidgeon at the hands of a red tail hawk. You can make the case that the hawk doesn't waste the bird carcasss, if you like. Then you would have to despise my wife's cats who often go into the field and find and kill animals only to retreive them and dump them in front of the door uneaten. It is nature at work and we humans, despite your dislike of our power and numbers, are part of nature.

And, yes, it is also fine by me if animals are killed for their skin or fur.
So, the needless (they could at least put the birds out of their misery) cruelty of the shotgunners is fine by you. As are tiger skin coats and elephant foot umbrella stands.

I don't despise you're wife's cats, but I do think cats should be kept indoors. Cats are more than happy to live indoors. There is no evidence that indoor cats are less happy than outdoor ones. The only thing at work there is a human belief structure that states 'cats must go out to be happy'.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 12:14 PM
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They have the same rights as other humans, whether they exercise them or not.
Not by your definition they don't.
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