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Old Aug 09, 2012, 11:53 AM
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
Why does the Guardian drive servos beyond the travel limits set in the Transmitter? It seems like this a design flaw. If the design was reviewed for potential failure modes you’d think that one major failure mode would be “over driving the servos.” One obvious effect is stripped servos (2 out of 3 have failed on one plane in 10 flights). The cause is simple – it was designed that way. Liklihood of occurrence is very high.

When I build a plane I am very careful set throws based on the recommendation of the plane’s design. To, me the Guardian should be constrained to stay below or be no greater than the throws programmed in the TX.

Anybody wonder the same thing?
Sorry to hear your having this issue. It's not a design flaw. The potential to overdrive the servos is mentioned many times in the manual.

The ability to adjust gyro servo limits is nothing new, and it can be found all the way down to midrange heli tail gyros. It can also be found in many flybarless heli units that I would deem are all more complicated in setup to the Guardian.

It's an inherent bonus to be able to rotate an aircraft based on a set rate of speed and in some cases a rate of acceleration. This goes well beyond proportional control. In heli speak this is akin to pyro rate, and cyclic rate. It is simply made possible because we have a sensor(s) on board that can measure the rate of rotation about an axis.

Here is an example of a single gyro made for the tail rotor of a heli. It is also widely used for aircraft rudders. In fact, the company advertises it for both heli and aircraft use, and its been out for awhile. Take note of the built-in trimmer pot for adjusting the servo limits. The manual also warns of binding if not adjusted properly.
http://manuals.hobbico.com/fut/futm0807-manual.pdf
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
Sorry to hear your having this issue. It's not a design flaw. The potential to overdrive the servos is mentioned many times in the manual.

The ability to adjust gyro servo limits is nothing new, and it can be found all the way down to midrange heli tail gyros. It can also be found in many flybarless heli units that I would deem are all more complicated in setup to the Guardian.

It's an inherent benefit to be able to rotate an aircraft based on a set rate of speed and in some cases a rate of acceleration. This goes well beyond proportional control. In heli speak this is similar to pyro rate, and cyclic rate.

Here is an example of a single gyro made for the tail rotor of a heli. It is also widely used for aircraft rudders. In fact, the company advertises it for both heli and aircraft use, and its been out for awhile. Take note of the built in trimmer pot for adjusting the servo limits. The manual also warns of binding if not adjusted properly.
http://manuals.hobbico.com/fut/futm0807-manual.pdf
First, this is an airplane gyro, not a heli gyro, therefore, I and airplane RC pilots don't speak heli tail gyro speak, so what's common to helicopter flyers is foreign to airplane flying Guardian customers.

Second, the numerous mentions of potential overdrive were not prominent to me because the manual reads a bit like a stream of consciouness and I must not have very good comprehension. My belief is simple. If it can happen to a customer then it is the duty of the designer to error proof the design or provide very specific steps for the user to mistake proof the implementation.

Third, I really like the two I have and I bought a third (backordered). Replacing $7 worth of servos is just PITA, but I did crash the plane when the right elevon servo stripped. It was quick repair of a scratchbuilt delta foamy but if I can avoid doing again I want to do so.
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 01:43 PM
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Hello guys, new to this thread. I just ordered this, not here to play with yet but hopefully soon. I have read much of this thread the past few days and done some searching but still have a couple questions, sorry if they've been answered already and I missed them somehow. First, the 3d heading hold vs rate mode. Is it possible while flying to switch between the two modes? Or is the unit only set for either heading hold or rate mode and it cannot be switched with the flip of a toggle in air....it must be programmed prior. I am thinking rate mode will be the mode for me as I don't really like the idea of setting the plane in a certain heading then basically flying hands free, for me that is too much like autopilot, though, it would be neat to experiement with. I understand rate mode is more natural. Lastly, I'm not too concerned as I am running decent servos in the intended planes (HS85mg on my cz yak) and (HS5245 on my 57" 3DHS Extra 330sc) but definately need to do some more reading about overdriving servos. Currently I have my planes setup with travel adjust to 150% to get the best servo resolution then got desired control throw using dual rates. Lots to learn. Anyway seems like a great product, looking forward to trying it out!
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 02:08 PM
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[QUOTE=Prof100;22400776] First, this is an airplane gyro, not a heli gyro, therefore, I and airplane RC pilots don't speak heli tail gyro speak, so what's common to helicopter flyers is foreign to airplane flying Guardian customers. [/QOUTE]

Ok. Here is a manual for a single gyro made exclusively for airplanes that also highlights servo travel limits: http://www.jrradios.com/ProdInfo/Fil...70A-Manual.pdf

[QUOTE=Prof100;22400776] My belief is simple. If it can happen to a customer then it is the duty of the designer to error proof the design or provide very specific steps for the user to mistake proof the implementation. [/Qoute]

This statement applies to all things. Not just the Guardian. I question its practical limits.

Crash in Collins Mississippi (1 min 18 sec)


Anyhow, I'm with you on error proofing not the design, but the manual. I apoligize if I'm frustrating you with my reasoning, but I tend to view the world and things in different ways. In no way do I represent Eagletree in anyway. These are my personal opinions. What Eagletree has implemented is an industry standard - that was what I was trying to point out with my heli examples.
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 02:17 PM
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[QUOTE=Silverexpress;22401454][QUOTE=Prof100;22400776] First, this is an airplane gyro, not a heli gyro, therefore, I and airplane RC pilots don't speak heli tail gyro speak, so what's common to helicopter flyers is foreign to airplane flying Guardian customers. [/QOUTE]

Ok. Here is a manual for a single gyro made exclusively for airplanes that also highlights servo travel limits: http://www.jrradios.com/ProdInfo/Fil...70A-Manual.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
My belief is simple. If it can happen to a customer then it is the duty of the designer to error proof the design or provide very specific steps for the user to mistake proof the implementation. [/Qoute]

This statement applies to all things. Not just the Guardian. I question its practical limits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPPuRx6CWVs

Anyhow, I'm with you on error proofing not the design, but the manual.
We are in vehement agreement, that at least the manual needs to be error proofed. I checked out the JR plane gyro manual link which provided striaghtforward "how to manage servo travel limits".
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Last edited by Prof100; Aug 09, 2012 at 02:46 PM.
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 02:17 PM
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Manual could use some stronger words about servo travel and how it should be checked, but it is in the manual nonetheless.

IEATSRT,
You can't change Heading Hold vs. Rate mode in the air. Just a gain mulitplier for all channels as well as 2D vs. 3D mode.
You set up 3D as Rate or Heading Hold.
I recommend you start with Rate mode (I think that's the default).

Since you have a mix of Analog and Digital servos, You should leave the servo freq setting alone in the PC - USB Interface. (OOPS, I see your comment below, my bad, you can go higher freq like 200hz on the digitals)

Since you are already set up for 150% travel adjust, I don't think you'll have an issue with damage because of too far travel, but you'll have to use the PC-USB interface to widen the max/min pulse range of the servo output.

Good Luck
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Last edited by Melnic; Aug 09, 2012 at 03:52 PM. Reason: mispoke
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 02:42 PM
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Melnic, thanks for the input. I don't have a mix of servos, cz yak has analog HS85mg's all around and the 330sc has Digital HS5245mg's all around. Going to test with the yak and If I like it get a second unit for the 330sc. Irregardless, will plan on keeping things simple for now. Rate mode it is. Thanks again.
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 04:08 PM
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servo list

like the title says/ some may ask "where are all the cheap or analogue servos? there are some but almost all analogue servos center on 1520uS and
the pulse freq is 50-70 max. the few exceptions are tailrotor specific analogues and after all this is aero hardware. ha
this list is from the beastx site, latest software version #3, list of servos

michael clyde
UPDATE
No need to get up guardian it seems the kk2.0 board with openaero2 firmware won't be sitting at the adult table with the big dogs after all... hey you kids make room over there for the kk2
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Last edited by mchldpy; Aug 12, 2012 at 05:57 AM. Reason: To throw rocks at the kkdouche i mean kk2
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 06:31 PM
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I wonder how accurate that list is? I've been driving my 5245mg at 200hz on my Flybarless heli for a while.
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 09:33 PM
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hey prof, i just snapped to something you said, you didn't notice it made any diff when moving the sticks around. i think you have to move the plane to see a diff. it's not reacting to your stick movements, it's reacting to movement from where your sticks were when they stopped moving. if i said that right.

mc
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 09:33 PM
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Got a guardian the other day and love it, but maybe you guys can help me out with one issue. On my 9503 I have triple rates on aux2 three way switch and the Guardian on my flaps three way switch. Any time I turn the Guardian on (2D or 3D) it turns my aux2 triple rates into dual rates. Essentially turns the three way switch into a two way switch. Turn off the Guardian and the rate switch is back to normal. I'm at a loss to figure it out. Really do love the Guardian nonetheless. Thanks.
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 09:41 PM
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melnic,
that's from the beastx site, the latest software version 3. list of servos.

michael clyde
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 09:48 PM
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Hey BillPa,

Put on 10.49 yesterday and updated the EE and OSD ok.

Today I tried to tweak some servo limits on the Guardian 2D/3D and can't. Nothing gets written to the Guardian. I can save the settings to a file ok and even read them back into the PC app but it never updates the Guardian. I tried several times. I even tried a Factory Rest and it still didn't update the Guardian. It says it does but when you go back in they are the same as before and I verified the servo limits stay at the old values.

I backed up to 10.48 and it will update the Guardian just fine.

Steve
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 09:54 PM
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melnic, the setting for swashplate is 200hz and tail is 165hz
on that site all analogues are listed @ 50hz on the tail and 70 hz on the swashplate, since guardian and most others list analogues at 50hz i didn't want to start a bunch of hoopla and questions "how come it says..."
so i left out the swashplate column. in retrospect, that may not have been the ideal solution.

michael clyde
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