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Old Mar 11, 2012, 06:04 PM
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Charles...

Cool stuff... This master gain thing had me look at my newer Heli 3 axis Mems Gyros...

Seems most Heli gyros use Ch-5 Gear channel to control both Rate and Heading hold gains from our transmitters so I took a look at the newest JR TAGS01 (triple axis gyro system) and it has 3 separate gain channels that can be assigned to our transmitters various Aux channels to individually set inflight gains for aileron, elevator, and rudder... Interesting...

I wouldn’t doubt the engineers at Eagle Tree and Feytech are probably well aware of the pros and cons a single master gain or individual channel gains have regarding faster or slower flying planes... It’s still interesting though...


bnick
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 06:23 PM
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Well IMO the Guardian2D / 3D has a bunch of great feactures and abilities ,especially at its' price point and for it's size and weight. There are addations / enhancements which could make it more versatile but not sure how cost effective they would be or how many would use some of the extras.

Charles
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 07:48 PM
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Charles...

Cool thoughts here and I for one want all the extras, ha... I've been flying RC since the early 1970's which correct me if I'm wrong is well over several hundred years now, or is that how long I've been married...? Whatever, can you even for a moment think where RC technology will be 50 years from now...? Or even 25 years from now...?

bnick
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLAME747 View Post

Or use the AUX2 3-way switch for 2D,Off,3D and use the left slider level to control the gain, however an unintentional bump of the level at the wrong time can spell disaster.

If I go with the left slider route to control the gain, I can limit the gain using travel adjust, I highly doubt anyone will be using 100% gain, So instead of going 0 to 100% on the slider, it can go from 0 to lets say 20% but still have full range movement of the slider

I recall when using Co-Pilot the max gain I was able to use was 10% for high speed passes.

Al how do you have the ET setup on your JR9303, what gain setting are you using?

Thanks

FCA
Hi FCA

I am using the left dial on my 9303, and use the 3 position switch as you describe above.

what I found was that I initially had more gain at the upper end than I needed. So I adjusted the individual roll, pitch and yaw potentiometers to give me the gains I needed with the dial at about 70% or so. That way I still had some gains to increase but it was not so much that I could cause violent oscillations. if the dial was set to 100 %.

This approach also allowed one the option of changing the relative gains of pitch, yaw and roll in case on a particular plane one needs more pitch than roll gain for example

I think your idea of lowering the top end of the dial channel travel endpoint would also work.

I was supposed to head out today and test a vertical launch of the stryker but got tied up .

Al
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 09:19 PM
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On most of the planes I've messed with, the Ail, Elev and Pitch axis all needed different gains. Aileron being the lowest and rudder the highest. When I've done 3 gyros, I'd put Rudder on it's own channel and Ail/Elev on the other. Then just run a lower elevator gain. It was fine. usually around 30% Heck, 30% when using rate mode on all 3 was not too shabby
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
Bill responed to this but see first paragraph of my post above.It sure seems to me that if gain to the Guardian is slaved to throttle, speed sensitive stabalizition would be obtained.
Slaving it to throttle is not the solution. Because throttle is not necessarily coupled to airspeed.
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Old Mar 12, 2012, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by scrtsqrl View Post
Slaving it to throttle is not the solution. Because throttle is not necessarily coupled to airspeed.
True not when:
Throttle is used for glider ,flaps,spoilers,crow and such.
Flying a 3D fixed wing in hover, harrier,blenders,etc.

and that is just a few however for many sports flyers, beginners using Mode2 to help prevent crashing, scale warbirds being flown scale ,Ariel video, fast planes such as pylon racers, EDFs , deltas, wings being flown as they are normaly flown it should work fine.

The Throttle to gain mix can be placed on a switch to turn it off when it gets in the way.

Perhaps ET will consider using an air speed sensor , adding a GPS which measures air speed or many other possible options however I was merely trying to point out how to make the most of what is avaialbe in the Guiardian 2D/3D at present.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=122

I mostly help develop and beta test chargers / LiPoly battery management ,test equipment and test batteries.
There is not a hobby charger sold which does everything I besire in a charger. The FMA Power Lab 8 comes the closest and sell for around $250 is extremly safe,powerful ,easy to program and has more possible user's configurations and memories than other chargers however it is still limited. My Dream version of it(PL8) would likely cost close to $1,000 and thus there would be a very limited market for it and thus end up being the perverbable White Elephant.


Guardian 2D/3D as is with perhaps minor firmare revisions (which are normal with all new RC electronics these days) at $75 will likely sell so well that production will lag orders for months to come. A do everything us RCers can think of model would likely cost more than all but a few would be willing to pay. I have 2 ET E Loggers a V2 (I believe) and a V3. The add ons for these cost as much or more than the E loggers did and I rarely use the add ons..


Believe me I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade, sound harsh, be a know it all or discourage anyone from suggesting improvement ,addations, add ons etc.. This is still an extremely new as yet unleased for sell version of a stabilization device which is really an out growth from previous ET products.

Charles
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Old Mar 12, 2012, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
True not when:
Throttle is used for glider ,flaps,spoilers,crow and such.
Flying a 3D fixed wing in hover, harrier,blenders,etc.

and that is just a few however for many sports flyers, beginners using Mode2 to help prevent crashing, scale warbirds being flown scale ,Ariel video, fast planes such as pylon racers, EDFs , deltas, wings being flown as they are normaly flown it should work fine.

The Throttle to gain mix can be placed on a switch to turn it off when it gets in the way.

Perhaps ET will consider using an air speed sensor , adding a GPS which measures air speed or many other possible options however I was merely trying to point out how to make the most of what is avaialbe in the Guiardian 2D/3D at present.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=122

I mostly help develop and beta test chargers / LiPoly battery management ,test equipment and test batteries.
There is not a hobby charger sold which does everything I besire in a charger. The FMA Power Lab 8 comes the closest and sell for around $250 is extremly safe,powerful ,easy to program and has more possible user's configurations and memories than other chargers however it is still limited. My Dream version of it(PL8) would likely cost close to $1,000 and thus there would be a very limited market for it and thus end up being the perverbable White Elephant.


Guardian 2D/3D as is with perhaps minor firmare revisions (which are normal with all new RC electronics these days) at $75 will likely sell so well that production will lag orders for months to come. A do everything us RCers can think of model would likely cost more than all but a few would be willing to pay. I have 2 ET E Loggers a V2 (I believe) and a V3. The add ons for these cost as much or more than the E loggers did and I rarely use the add ons..


Believe me I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade, sound harsh, be a know it all or discourage anyone from suggesting improvement ,addations, add ons etc.. This is still an extremely new as yet unleased for sell version of a stabilization device which is really an out growth from previous ET products.

Charles
The airspeed sensor was first implemented by Lutz Focke in his Gyrobot 900 Wing, and Gyrobot 900 Wing Jet. These units are over $1000 USD. It'll be interesting what EagleTree comes up with at a price point of $80

http://www.lf-technik.de/shop/produc...-900-Wing.html

http://www.youtube.com/user/TeamLFTechnik?feature=mhum

Here is a very good example of the air sensor in use:

GyroBot 900 WING JET Demo Flight (2 min 52 sec)


The actual stabilizing unit above is housed in an aluminum case that was developed to dampen the high frequency vibrations of a 2 stage turbine.

In fact, you would want all these units housed in either a plastic or aluminum case to dampen out vibrations.

On another note, the Skookum SK720 has to date still the best hardware implementation. It incorporates a 9 channel rx that will work with either Spektrum Satellites or Futaba S-bus. This cuts down on a great deal of wiring. It also has 3 accelerometers that is used of self leveling in either upright or inverted orientations. It's software suite even includes on board vibration analysis! Two of the channels are used for switching between two banks of setup parameters while in flight. On channel for the main rotor (cyclic) and another channel for the tail rotor. This also allows you to set varying gains.

http://www.skookumrobotics.com/produ...arless-system/

Here is a vid by a Mr. Clox. He's manually hovering his heli in the inverted position, and has assigned the self leveling to a two position switch as a bailout maneuver.

SK720 inverted self level (1 min 29 sec)


I've read the majority of all the available manuals on all current stabilizing units to date (air/heli), and Skookum Robotics Sk720 manual is by far the best hands down! The unit first sold at $499, and is now $399.
http://www.skookumrobotics.com/downl...Manual_3_1.pdf

I am really skeptical on what you'll get for $80.
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Old Mar 12, 2012, 02:04 PM
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Silver...


Good stuff... No doubt the sk720 sits up there at the top along with the original HeliCommand, which at one point seemed to sell for $700, and I watched vid's yesterday about some new stabilizers that as far as I'm concerned are holding more stable than anything I've ever seen yet their models seems to range from $1000 on up towards $1400... Too rich for my blood but very cool none the less...


I did want to add that I bought the HK Flymentor for $74 seems a year ago or so, and it has worked perfectly in stabilizing the nasty little hairy flying Blade SR 250 sized CP, as well as the 300 sized Esky HoneyBee FPV2, my Trex450 CP, and the big 500 size FP from Multiplex the FunCopter V2... Plus it had the photocell that locks onto any crack in the sidewalk, or leaf, or carpeting in the house, and hold it's position while balancing too...

My point is this $75 Guardian may well be a great value coming to us hopefully soon, and backlogged it may well be as you guys put it, but as nice as the sk720\320's are and were, so too are some of the cheap ones like the Flymentor for only $75 or so... Recently I received an email from them telling about their new Flymentor which will all be in one unit like this Guardian and in which my FY30A is...

I'm aware the Guardian and FY30A are different, even though they look remarkably alike, but from all I've read and seen they operate all but identical... I look foreword to ordering the Guardian but I 3D fly the FY30A daily, and it has set the benchmark for me, even at it's $50 cost above the Guardian...


Fun stuff to be discussing...
bnick
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by alros_100 View Post
Everydayflyer

A few firmwares back eagle tree engineer built in some routines that detect and dampen oscillations created by speed which allows the gains to be dynamically reduced by guardian itself.
Al
Please forgive me, Everydayflyer, for editing your previous post here. But something you said seems to have gone unnoticed.

We are all concerned, rightly so, about the Guardian breaking into oscillation if the total closed loop gains are too high. This is always a problem in such a control system and must be accounted for in some way. Manual gain control is simply the most common (and primitive) method that we employ today.

Linking gain to airspeed is one step up in achieving automatic gain control. But the ET folks may be a giant step ahead from what you say.

Back in the 1960's, Minneapolis Honeywell built a system (called the MH-96) which was installed in the X-15 rocket research plane. It was never fully developed, but it used a very clever way of internally preventing oscillations by sensing vibrations in the airframe. If vibrations were recognized by the system, gains were automatically lowered until the vibrations went away. Using this method, gains could be maintained as high as possible regardless of flight condition.

Early on with the MH-96 program some limitations were recognized which would have been too costly to upgrade. And ultimately that system was implicated in the crash of an X-15. But today, with the amazing advances in electronics that have come along, I suspect that ET can do what Minneapolis Honeywell could never have done 50 years ago.

My point is, lets keep an open mind and see just what ET has to offer. They have the potential to put this gain/oscillation problem to bed in ways not yet imagined.

Dick
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 11:28 AM
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It was alros_100 back here

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=116

that posted

Quote:
A few firmwares back eagle tree engineer built in some routines that detect and dampen oscillations created by speed which allows the gains to be dynamically reduced by guardian itself.
but yes they did and yes it does work.

Charles
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 11:59 AM
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Guardian 2D/3d and very high humidity.

Ths morning it looked like the sun was going to peak out so I charged some LiPolys and headed to the field, ran into showers close to the field, it was misting off and on at the field but hey I came to fly so I flew between showers..

Guardian is mounted out in the open and while it did not get dripping wet it was exposed to 90% + humidity and I flew thru the very low dark gray to black clouds numerious times. Everything performed great as usual.

Charles
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 12:48 PM
Whats the wrst that can happn?
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Any ideas on how to integrate the new Guardian stand-alone with OSD Pro so you can use fail safe or manual return to home?
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamChicago View Post
Any ideas on how to integrate the new Guardian stand-alone with OSD Pro so you can use fail safe or manual return to home?
Hi Adam

I know it is possible but I have not tested this yet. There is a data link that can go from guardian to OSD pro's I2C daisy chain connector (ie use it just like the add on guardian).


Al
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alros_100 View Post
Hi Adam

I know it is possible but I have not tested this yet. There is a data link that can go from guardian to OSD pro's I2C daisy chain connector (ie use it just like the add on guardian).


Al
Now that's just cool. I'd like to know more about that.
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