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Old Mar 10, 2012, 02:23 PM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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What can I say about this new electronic marvel? I have been a beta tester for many different RC devices including some of the ET Data Loggers,Air Speed ,Altimeter ,Brush less RPM and other add on / stand alone sensors and nothing has been as exciting and as much fun as the Guardian 2D/3D.

Weather here has been less than perfect for flying but I have managed to log 8 flights with it on one of my Mini Gremlins which is a combat flying wing. I have changed the motor to a bit warmer one since that photo. Level flight is 65MPH currently , can get 76 out of it but that eats the battery to fast.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=58

Recommended mounting location for the Guardian is as close to CG as possible but not critical. Well on Gremlin Guardian is mounted on the orange platform between the fins which places the center of the Guardian 4-1/4" behind the CG and 3" ahead of the elevons trailing edges. I am using very short control horns and servos have extremely limited movement (50% on Elevators and 65% on Ailerons) yet the Guardian does an excellent job.

2D Mode hand off straight level flight is perfect no matter what the wind is doing. I have flown it right above the stall point in gusty cross winds and it stays right on track with only limited drifting and there are no rudders. Hand launches were not difficult before but now they are even easier and the wind does not change its' course.

Every setup / aircraft is going to be a bit different depending on control surfaces,travel, gain setting and such but as mine is setup while in 2D mode and low rates hard over to Right or left results in knife edge, full up results in half of a loop then it flip back to level flight.
High rates will let it roll and if stick is centered while inverted the snap back to upright level flight is perhaps 1/2 of a second.

3D mode and this thing is on rails , not like ordinary train ralls but more like mono rails. Assume a position ,center the stick and watch it continue on course. Gremlin will not hold knife edge but it sure trys awful hard. Roll or loop to inverted and center stick and hands offf inverted is perfect. Landing in a gusty cross wind is completely a non event even without rudders..

I have been flying in 3D mode inverted and fliped to 2D mode and ttransition to upright level flight is so fast that it is difficult to believe.

Charles
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 03:47 PM
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Portland, Oregon
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Every...

Any latebreaking news about release dates...?

bnick
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Old Mar 10, 2012, 03:49 PM
Static Model Collector LOL
Katy, TX
Joined Dec 2009
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Fantastic news - I have 3 new planes that is yet to be maiden

I'm waiting on the unit to be released

FCA
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 12:05 AM
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everydayflyer,

That's exciting...
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 12:52 AM
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United States, TX, Houston
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Sounds great

I am looking forward to the release, I hope this will make fast EDFs much more accessable for us mere ordinary pilots!
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 04:21 AM
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Portland, Oregon
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I'm still trying to learn these myself and I'm wondering regarding EDF's and faster planes, if the faster the plane the lower the stabilizing gain would need to be...?

Those of us presently using the Feytech FY30A's have experienced what happens when any of the 3 stabilizer gain pots are tuned too high... It can cause oscillations on your, rudder, aileron's, or elevator, as your plane gains speed... One correction is countered by another correction and they can grow and become bigger and bigger until you slow down...

So I guess I'm wondering if on faster planes could we find ourselves using less gains which will still stabilize nicely, or at least assist us in our better control of faster machines...?

Happy Flyin'
bnick
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 04:40 AM
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Yes, the faster you go the more authority the control surface has, so the lower the gain needs to be.

It would be nice to see it integrated with the eagle tree airspeed sensor so as speed increases it could reduce gain automatically. That way you get the absolute best gain throughout the speed envelope.

Any other way is going to be something of a compromise between slow speed stability and high speed wobbles.

EDF aren't inherently difficult to fly by the way, they just have some unique handling characteristics compared to prop planes. If you can fly a fast low wing prop, you can fly an EDF.... You just have to bear in mind that as you slow down, there is no prop wash over the wings and control surfaces, so control authority suffers more.... And the EDF is a bit slower to start generating thrust than the prop equivalents so will take slightly longer to respond.

That aside, nothing difficult. If you can pick up a parkzone Habu still (just been discontinued) those are about the most forgiving EDF you could buy to learn on! Delta winged jets are also a good choice IMO as they tend to have very gentle stall characteristics.
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 05:57 AM
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Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
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Charles,

With the Guardian, have you tried any vertical launches of non-VTOL aircraft?

Dave

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Old Mar 11, 2012, 06:00 AM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Remember that the Guardian 2D/3D has a remote gain control input feacture. If your Transmitter/ receiver has an extra channel available with a rotary dial or slider you can vary the gain thus the sensitivy from zero (non) to max in flight this is in addation to the 3 Flight Mode being selectable from the Transmitter . Think about this for a few minutes the varialble gain could be mixed (linked) to the throttle position. Also remember that Eagle Tree is not the new kid on the block and that they have a rather impressive history of sorting problems / issues out. I would not be to surprised seeing the G 2D/3D addressing issues not tackled by others.

Something to think about is how you will control the Guardian when you get it. I am using a 4 year old DX7 which while a decent Transmitter is really very limited when it comes to mixes. One example is there are no real Guardian useable gain controls,electronic rocker/ bump up and down digitial trims type are not fit for this. Guardian need a 3 position switch for. -100% 2D / 0% Off / +100% 3D. Only switch on DX7 which is 3 way is Flap Mix and that works well if duel aileron servos (Flaperons) are not used and most everyone does use them. I spent hours figuring out how to use tjhe 3 way Flap Mix messing around in the many user setable mixes and guess what non will work. System Flap and use the Normal , Mid and Land but not with Flaperons ( duel aileron servos).

Gear, Aux 2 etc. can be use for 2 of the three Modes but then which Modes to use?

I started a Request for Help ? Thread here
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1611293

only 24 hours ago but have received zero suggestions. I am not a Transmitter programing Guru but not exactly new at it either as my first True computerized RC Transmitter was an Ace Micro Pro 8000 ,1990 ventage. It is a Single Stick ,a work of art and yes I still have it and have converted it to 2.4 and programing it to get full functionaly with the Guardian is a piece of cake but that really does not help the masses a great deal.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1260175


Quote:
I'm still trying to learn these myself and I'm wondering regarding EDF's and faster planes, if the faster the plane the lower the stabilizing gain would need to be...?
Already answered above and yes you are correct. A great example is RC Pylon racers which have very narrow control surfaces which move a very small amount and many only have an Aileron on the right half of the wing which reduces the drag created . When I first saw,built and flew Fun Fly planes around 25 years ago I could not believe how large the control surfaces were and how much they moved. Many full scale aircraft have speed proportional controlled steering (?) as do some of the luxuary automobiles.


Quote:
Charles,

With the Guardian, have you tried any vertical launches of non-VTOL aircraft?

Dave
No I have not but then I have had it for less than a week , weather here like many locations has been very unsettled, I fly alone 99.5% of the time and really do not like placing myself or my aircraft in harms way to the extreme.

Some things (points) about flight stabilization are a bit difficult to wrap one's head around or they are for me anyhow.

Way back in the late 70's I flew RC Combat flying wings which was grossly overpowered that would go striaght up as well as one could keep it pointed that way. Here is a snap shot from 1979 of me having just released one of my King Combats . 36"WS / 10"cord, a little under 32 oz. (from memory) withan OS Max. .25 FSR ,flow thru muffler(?)
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attac...6&d=1327232096

My point? I have flown these vertical launch from inside of a cardboard box ,cut to size. Netural elevons , full throttle and watch it go mostly striaght up for 3 or 4 seconds till it was getting very small.

Question have you ever done square loops with an RC plane? Most overpowered ones like I mostly fly from level flight only require a blip of full up to start the vertical up line then netural .The Guardian in 3D Mode could prevent wind gust from upsetting the launch perhaps but one would have to be absolutely positive that netural comtrols were peferfect prior to engaging 3D mode and releasing. If you have it rolled to either side or tilted up or down (on angles) then that that is where 3D is going to keep it pointed 3D mode does not correct from a banked turn to level / strsight flight it maintains the banked turn. 2D returns to / maintainsstriaght level flight ..

I would think that if one aimed the aircraft vertical and did a Reset Trims and Level Flight Orientation and launched in 2D mode it would work. Remember I only have one hand assembled beta unit to use for testing and I had rather not break it ,my aircraft or myself.

Added: I saw a post where someone glued carbon fibe tubes to the bottom of a Stryker , mounter solid rods into a base at aprox. 45 degree angle, placed stops on the rods,placed Stryker on the rods, lowered it then stepped back and did full power hands free launches , but without any stabilization electronics. I am fairly sure this approach would work fine with the Guardian in 3D mode . Only point I am not clear on is how long it reuires the Guardian to determine the aircraft's present heading .

Charles
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 10:18 AM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrtsqrl View Post
It would be awesome if you could slave gain with airspeed. I'm sure if there was a company that could do this, you can, given that you already have the hardware in house.
Bill responed to this but see first paragraph of my post above.It sure seems to me that if gain to the Guardian is slaved to throttle, speed sensitive stabalizition would be obtained. Not sure how many transmitter will alow such a mix..

I can see it working extremely well in the 2D mode but also see some issues in the 3D mode where more rudder stabilitation ( automated control) is need to hold it . Next we will be wanting remote gain control for multi / seperate Axis.

Charles
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 10:44 AM
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Great White North
Joined Jun 2008
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Speed and gains

Everydayflyer - great to see you participating on this - i have been following your reviews and recommendations on batteries for years!!

regarding speed and gains:

yes, as Bnick and Rusty state, the gains have to be reduced as speed increases because the control surfaces have greater effect with speed. Same reason that some of us program dual rates etc for a plane that can fly slow and fast (like a stryker) so that when flying it at top speed, you have very little servo movement.

Also remember, that just like with flying an unstabilized plane at higher speeds, linkage slop needs to be eliminated as much as possible to avoid control surface flutter and also to avoid over correction by the controller (you or a stabilizer)

A few firmwares back eagle tree engineer built in some routines that detect and dampen oscillations created by speed which allows the gains to be dynamically reduced by guardian itself.

I have been flying with a x9303 and 11x which have a dial that can be used for gains so that I could change it quickly on the fly. This worked really well for very high speed passes with the stryker.

My boosted 2.4ghz radio for FPV is an old dx7 and as everydayflyer states it is a pain not having a dial on it. I had to adjust the channel endpoint up and down (I had gains on my gear channel). It is tricky while flying, but I put the radio on the endpoint screen and flew it that way and used the radio buttons to raise and lower the top endpoint which basically changes the guardian gain

Al
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 02:47 PM
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Portland, Oregon
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I had my, Manual Mode 1, 3D Mode 2, and Full Auto Stab Mode 3, on my old DX7, 3 way flaps switch up to a few weeks ago and then moved my Flaps over to my 2 way gear switch... I lost the flaps mid position and they then became either fully retracted or fully down to wherever I set them...


Then my lhs advised I clean up my DX7 and bring her down to put on consignment in which he felt it would sell immediately for $175... Later I got a call about an hour after getting home and took the full amount of the sale and applied it to a new DX8 which is like a new Corvette next to a 63 Corvair...

It has 6 fully programmable three way switches and it's Rotary knob too... She came with the 8 channel AR8000 receiver, the TM1000 Telemetry module and 2 remote sensors for $429 and minus the DX7 left me with basically $250 out of pocket to upgrade...


I loved that DX7 and it was flawless for me the last 3 years but this DX8 with her $17 HK 4000mAh Lipo is just the best combo I've had so far...


There are much more expensive systems out there but for me stepping up to the DX8 was great advice, and having my lhs be able to sell my gear almost instantly then applying every sent to the upgrade was a great way of getting me into the new radio and my lhs a sale...



I've thought all along the throttle channel would be a good real-time master gain control for either the Guardian, or my FY30A, but would it control just one gain like the aileron, and not control the other two...? I guess I wonder how it would control all three gain pots overall...? You know the speed\gain factor will be part of the new stabilizers down the road especially if they have been experimenting with it's programming already...

You can just see it all combined as one mini module with, OSD, GPS, Stabilizing, with Go-Home, Altitude-Hold, GPS-Hold, with say 5m accuracy, newer Waypoint technologies, Auxiliary Gimbal Control channels for Head Tracking... The skies the limit really...

Just on a GPS side note:

Before I left my 34 year Telcom Engineering career my crews were using $75k Survey-Grade GPS units for data collection and these GPS units had sub-centimeter accuracy... A person has to think about how small this is in triangulating accurately a coin sitting on the top of your head and having it's lat\long perfectly located... This accuracy is often used for surveying property lines in assessing taxes for property owners...


Sorry it gets boring real fast but these technologies can find their way into our hobby very fast with the right minds behind them...

bnick


Cheers to the new Guardian...
bnick
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 03:43 PM
Static Model Collector LOL
Katy, TX
Joined Dec 2009
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I have a JR9503, all my setting are linked to my Flight mode switch

FM-N is high rates, used exclusively for launch and landing (High Gain)

FM-1 typically set as to match the manufacture low settings for the model.

FM-2 limited servo travel for high speed runs (Low Gain)

Iíve been thinking about how this will be set up and I came up with 2 ways

With the gyro sens function activated, I can assign set values for each flight mode, this will take some tweaking to get the perfect gain, and will still have to use my AUX 2 3 way switch for 2D,Off,3D

Or use the AUX2 3-way switch for 2D,Off,3D and use the left slider level to control the gain, however an unintentional bump of the level at the wrong time can spell disaster.

If I go with the left slider route to control the gain, I can limit the gain using travel adjust, I highly doubt anyone will be using 100% gain, So instead of going 0 to 100% on the slider, it can go from 0 to lets say 20% but still have full range movement of the slider

I recall when using Co-Pilot the max gain I was able to use was 10% for high speed passes.

Al how do you have the ET setup on your JR9303, what gain setting are you using?

Thanks

FCA
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 04:09 PM
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Please can this have settings for/be compatible with digital servos, this is why I'm not using the FY30A.
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Old Mar 11, 2012, 04:43 PM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Quote:
I had my, Manual Mode 1, 3D Mode 2, and Full Auto Stab Mode 3, on my old DX7, 3 way flaps switch up to a few weeks ago
bnick
I set mine up like that also for my Flying wing but it will not work if you have Flaperons enabled for duel alierons servos ,Flaps, Spoilers ,or at least I have not been able to get it to work.

Quote:
I've thought all along the throttle channel would be a good real-time master gain control for either the Guardian, or my FY30A, but would it control just one gain like the aileron, and not control the other two...? I guess I wonder how it would control all three gain pots overall...?
Gain input to Guardian effects all 3 Axis's gain.

DX7 will likely still be with me for many years to come. If I wanted to be able to do anything and everything without limitations other than just 8 channels I would just use my MicroPro 8000 and be done with it. I am merely trying to help support the Guardian 2D/3D to the masses with old DX7s.

I have found a work around for everything but in flight gain adjustments by moving 2D / Non (Off) and 3D to AUX 2 (2 & 3D ) and Mix. Rudder D/R for non (off).. Does require a 7 Channel receiver however.

Now if the Guardian had a option as well as Standard and Elevevons .
Just a thought as I have made no real attempt to map it out and do not know if it is remotely possible or not.

Charles
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