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Old Jul 21, 2012, 09:03 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
1,972 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedorme View Post
I'm concerned about accidentaly bumping the slider so think I will probably use the switch

Jed
That's a good concern and could happen with a slider or a switch and could also be left in the wrong position from some previous aircraft or taking it out of your car, forgetting to set the proper value. For that reason and another I suggest adjusting the upper limit on your gain channel to the maximum usable gain on the model. That way you don't have to worry about taking off with a wildly oscillating plane or creating one in flight by bumping the control. The following is a process to follow to determine the maximum usable gain, but this is a bit beyond where you are now. You need to get flying first and come back to this later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
I think it would be helpful for new Guardian flyers to have a plan on how to establish good settings for the on-board pots. Here is my take on it, I'm sure those with more experience will comment.

If you have a knob or slider for master gain and are trying to tune the pots for your aircraft, here is a methodology that should work pretty universally:
  1. Setup your pots for max gain in the proper direction.
  2. Set your tx for 3D HH and the master gain to zero.
  3. Fly at "normal" speed, that you use most commonly with this plane.
  4. Always using small steps, increase the master gain until you can "feel" the Guardian start to have an effect.
  5. Increase the master gain slightly.
  6. Use a burst of full throttle and watch carefully for oscillation and be ready to back off.
  7. Note the axis on which the oscillation was observed and back off the throttle and back down the master gain slightly. If no oscillation, go back to step 5.
  8. Land without further change in the master gain.
  9. Note the position of the master gain, eg. 40% of knob rotation, back down the oscillating channel to this same value.
  10. Fly again and go back to step 5, repeat until there is no oscillation with the master gain at max.
At this point you can use the full range of your knob to tune the gain in flight knowing you won't encounter oscillation at any setting even if you accidentally bump the knob or takeoff without pre-setting it properly. With the knob at max you will get all the gain your plane can use. You could still encounter oscillation in a high speed dive and need to back down the master gain in such situations. If you want to confirm that you are getting all the gain you can use, increase each pot slightly and test for oscillation again.

One modification; If you fly with a wide speed envelope, you may want to follow the procedure for oscillation at low speed in step 6 instead of full throttle. This will yield higher gain values on the pots that may be more useful flying at low speeds, hovering, etc. but will require you to be vigilant and back the master gain down when flying at higher speeds to avoid oscillation.
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Old Jul 21, 2012, 09:52 PM
Static Model Collector LOL
Katy, TX
Joined Dec 2009
1,448 Posts
The gyro menu is useful after you've figured out the perfect gain for phase of your flight , and it's a bit more time consuming so take you time setting it up

As for the sliders I am comfortable using the sliders
I might map the mode function to the right slider

Had my heli set up with the left slider controling the helicommand and right slider controlling the gyro gain

Anyways have fun

More testing tomorrow

FCA
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Old Jul 22, 2012, 01:42 AM
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Joined Jul 2009
302 Posts
ChooChoo2 & FCA -

Again many thanks for this very helpful advice & I really do accept the fact that flying with the Guardian is not a slam dunk proposition. So I will definitely only fly initially without any Master Gain inputs & just using the 50% gain set on the pots, which if I am correct in my understanding, with a default setting of 40% master gain, will really only give me about 20% real gain. I think that might be enough to start out with the T-28 since it is already kind of "uber" stable to begin with.

But I do have to confess, that at least for me, the interaction of the pot gains & the master gain, coupled with the variables of all the different set up options for the transmitters being used out there, is one of the more mystifying aspects of basic flying with the Guardian. And I'm not even going to think about or comment on all of the many advanced features that ET has made available in this little micro wonder.

I just cant wait to get my T-28 in the air with it, but unfortunately I won't be able to do so for the next week at least due to a social engagement taking me out of town during that time. But again, I really appreciate all of the valuable info & advice given on this forum. Cheers,

Jed
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Old Jul 22, 2012, 03:01 AM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedorme View Post
But I do have to confess, that at least for me, the interaction of the pot gains & the master gain, coupled with the variables of all the different set up options for the transmitters being used out there, is one of the more mystifying aspects of basic flying with the Guardian.
To be honest, I don't think Eagle Tree thought this part through very well. It's really a nomenclature and description problem, not a functional problem but...

When someone says they have a Guardian installed in their new "Super Widget" and it's working great with 30% gain, I have no idea what that means. Is it:
  • The pots are set at 30%?
  • The master gain is at 30%?
  • Both are at 30%?
  • They have done some math and the pot gain times the master gain equals 30% overall?
  • Are they considering the master gain as 0-100% or 0-200%?
  • Is the gain wire disconnected, which applies 40% to the pot gain?
Depending on the answers to those questions, 30% can mean many very different gains. About all you can take from that is that you should probably start with a pretty low gain for the first time on yours.

Even if you have an identical Super Widget and you somehow knew how to interpret all of the above, you would still need to go through your own tuning because:
  • Even identical airframes are not identical.
  • Your CG may be different.
  • Your servos are probably different.
  • Your linkages are probably different.
  • Your transmitter may be sending a different pulse width even with the same settings.
  • Your style of flying is probably different.
People want to take a shortcut by asking someone else for their settings but in the end everyone needs to work out their own settings anyway.

Setup help is a different matter, however. This can be confusing and some advice getting things hooked up correctly can be a big help.
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Old Jul 22, 2012, 03:28 AM
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Prof100's Avatar
Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
To be honest, I don't think Eagle Tree thought this part through very well. It's really a nomenclature and description problem, not a functional problem but...


When someone says they have a Guardian installed in their new "Super Widget" and it's working great with 30% gain, I have no idea what that means. Is it:
  • The pots are set at 30%?
  • The master gain is at 30%?
  • Both are at 30%?
  • They have done some math and the pot gain times the master gain equals 30% overall?
  • Are they considering the master gain as 0-100% or 0-200%?
  • Is the gain wire disconnected, which applies 40% to the pot gain?
Depending on the answers to those questions, 30% can mean many very different gains. About all you can take from that is that you should probably start with a pretty low gain for the first time on yours.


Even if you have an identical Super Widget and you somehow knew how to interpret all of the above, you would still need to go through your own tuning because:
  • Even identical airframes are not identical.
  • Your CG may be different.
  • Your servos are probably different.
  • Your linkages are probably different.
  • Your transmitter may be sending a different pulse width even with the same settings.
  • Your style of flying is probably different.
People want to take a shortcut by asking someone else for their settings but in the end everyone needs to work out their own settings anyway.

Setup help is a different matter, however. This can be confusing and some advice getting things hooked up correctly can be a big help.
Good point there Chooch but when first using and setting up the Guardian the question about initial gain settings is to simply to get in the ballpark. My setup in my elevon only Superfly with a DX6i only has two position flap switch which I have configured to toggle between 2D and 3D. Master Gain is NOT connected on the limited capability DX6i because it has no proportional slider or knob. That said, I am thinking of plugging it into the gear switch so I can turn the Guardian off and on. I am flying mine with 50% gain on the pots. No master gain adjustment connected.
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Last edited by Prof100; Jul 22, 2012 at 10:31 AM.
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Old Jul 22, 2012, 07:41 AM
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Melbourne, Australia.
Joined Jul 2006
110 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
I don't think so but you can set the travel limits on your two 2 pos switches to give you your choice of 2D-3D, or 2D-off, or 3D-off on the mode switch and any low-high gain values you want on the gain channel, including zero gain.
If you aren't bothered by opening up your TX I'm sure it could be modded to change the 2 pos switch to a 3 pos one. Would just need a 3 pos, on/off/on switch and some resistors.

Mike.
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Old Jul 22, 2012, 12:34 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
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John_T

One way Eagle Tree might make the gain less ambiguous (RE: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...2#post22230926) is to display the overall gain in use for each channel on the main page of the PC interface in real-time as the user makes changes to transmitter settings and Guardian pots. This would also be a useful setup tool something like a servo monitor on a transmitter.

This would require the receiver to be powered-on while the USB is connected, not sure if this is a problem but I haven't seen any warnings about it. In fact, it might be helpful to have the Guardian pass through the 5v from the USB to the rx so a motor battery is not required in the plane. This would be safer but there might be complications.
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Old Jul 22, 2012, 08:03 PM
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Joined Jul 2012
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Mlke: why the resistors and where?
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Old Jul 22, 2012, 09:31 PM
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Joined May 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger Wing View Post
Mlke: why the resistors and where?
If you have to ask, you probably should not consider doing it. It may be a little tougher than he was alluding to also. It would certainly work on analog equipment, but not guaranteed (at all!) on a microprocessor controlled encoder.

I have quite a few flights on this with my tufflight bouncer. All I can say is WOW. I want one of these for each model I own now. Bravo Zulu to Eagletree. For learning hovers and what not, it is a great device. Slowly turn down the gain on a slider as you get more proficient. Next it is going in my Polaris for video work.
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Old Jul 22, 2012, 09:35 PM
But often down to earth
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Oklahoma, USA
Joined Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
John_T

One way Eagle Tree might make the gain less ambiguous (RE: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...2#post22230926) is to display the overall gain in use for each channel on the main page of the PC interface in real-time as the user makes changes to transmitter settings and Guardian pots. This would also be a useful setup tool something like a servo monitor on a transmitter.

This would require the receiver to be powered-on while the USB is connected, not sure if this is a problem but I haven't seen any warnings about it. In fact, it might be helpful to have the Guardian pass through the 5v from the USB to the rx so a motor battery is not required in the plane. This would be safer but there might be complications.
+1 I'd also like a digital display of the pot settings even if the receiver isn't connected. It would help setting the pots and remembering what the settings are. I'm sure we could look in the config file put on the screen would be cool.

Thanks in advance, Bill.

Steve
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Old Jul 22, 2012, 11:29 PM
LSF 004 - AMA 5055
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Saratoga, CA USA
Joined Dec 2000
586 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedorme View Post
I'm just now installing my Guardian in my T-28. Thanks for these pot gain suggestions. Are you using the master gain control on your TX, & if so what range of adjustment of the pot gains? Are you using a Y cord for the aileron servos or separate TX channels? Is your Onboard Dual Aileron Mixing enabled or disabled? I'm having a problem getting the Guardian to control both ailerons in the same amount - one is getting more correction input than the other. Thanks.

Jed
Jed,

Had the same problem with the ailerons. My plane was initially setup with dual ailerons on two separate channels. The default for the Guardian is to do the aileron mixing for you. Therefore mine was being mixed by the transmitter and again by the Guardian. If yours is setup that way, just change no. 9 on page 11 of the manual to be option 1 (Off).

Bob
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 06:29 AM
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Berkley, MI
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
John_T

One way Eagle Tree might make the gain less ambiguous (RE: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...2#post22230926) is to display the overall gain in use for each channel on the main page of the PC interface in real-time as the user makes changes to transmitter settings and Guardian pots. This would also be a useful setup tool something like a servo monitor on a transmitter.

This would require the receiver to be powered-on while the USB is connected, not sure if this is a problem but I haven't seen any warnings about it. In fact, it might be helpful to have the Guardian pass through the 5v from the USB to the rx so a motor battery is not required in the plane. This would be safer but there might be complications.
+1 on showing the gain values in the PC interface. Also add the remotely adjustable gain pots using the PC interface for less accessible Guardian installations.
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 10:10 AM
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United States, AZ, Sedona
Joined Feb 2009
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I ordered mine, put it in my U CAN DO 60 electric and all I can say is WOW! One other guy in my club ordered at the same time. We both showed up on the same day for our maidens and he want at least 2 more. I just ordered 1 more. As for dual elevators, I ended up using a Y harness and moving one of the servo control horns to the other side so they work together! Thought about opening one up to reverse it but this was easier! Turned the gains all the way up on the unit and adjust them with a slide on my 9CAP. Seems to work perfect! Hope they can work a RTL for the data port! Lots of guys interested in that!! Three others in my club already looking to order after seeing mine work!! Way to go ET!!!
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 11:48 AM
Static Model Collector LOL
Katy, TX
Joined Dec 2009
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Ok guys I've been playing around with the Guardian installed in a PZ T-28, So far the 2D mode is flawless, did some additional tweaking yesterday and again in 2D mode the plane, landings are amazing

I did post before that I have the remote gain mapped to a slider, that slider position was left in the middle - it's my understanding, the unit is working off of the current pot settings - See pic of the 2D tab setting

now 3D mode is not performing as I had hoped it would, when I release the sticks it fails to hold it, i tried to do inverted and knife edge it only held for a brief moment

Can someone look at the attached screen shots of my Guarding setting and let me know if anything is "off" in the 3D tab

Thanks,

FCA
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 12:27 PM
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Berkley, MI
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLAME747 View Post
Ok guys I've been playing around with the Guardian installed in a PZ T-28, So far the 2D mode is flawless, did some additional tweaking yesterday and again in 2D mode the plane, landings are amazing

I did post before that I have the remote gain mapped to a slider, that slider position was left in the middle - it's my understanding, the unit is working off of the current pot settings - See pic of the 2D tab setting

now 3D mode is not performing as I had hoped it would, when I release the sticks it fails to hold it, i tried to do inverted and knife edge it only held for a brief moment

Can someone look at the attached screen shots of my Guarding setting and let me know if anything is "off" in the 3D tab

Thanks,

FCA
PZ T-28 is not a 3D plane. It does not have the over exaggerated control surfaces needed for knifedge or a symmetrical airfoil for the main wings. I wont say its impossible, just make sure you've got it setup to do it. Also, make sure you have enough throw for elevator and corect cg to do inverted.
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