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Old Jul 09, 2012, 02:43 PM
I'm slow but I'm expensive
Ken Lilja's Avatar
United States, GA, Snellville
Joined Nov 2003
571 Posts
I was thinking of the 8 pin connector on receiver connection harness. Servo extension leads might be a little expensive (unless I make them myself ) And maybe a little messy. But they will work. I'll have to see what I have around.
Ken

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Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
They are standard servo connectors otherwise they would not plug into the receiver. You can use standard servo extensions which have three leads instead of the only one which is needed except for the Ail. one which provides power to the Guardian as well as the singnal. You could remove the extra leads to save a bit of weight but unless it is a very small / lightweight one the weight shoulld not be an issue.

Charles
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 03:24 PM
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Keller, TX
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Everydayflyer is right.
I have Guardian installed in a Zephyr so only needed the aileron plus three other channels (mode, gain, elevator). These three I just wired up using a single standard servo lead but with each of the three wires in the lead as a signal wire for the three channels. Worked like a charm!
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 05:15 PM
Static Model Collector LOL
Katy, TX
Joined Dec 2009
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So you guys have to make custom connectors in order for the guardian to work properly

I don't understand the need for these "special harness" you guys are referring to

Thanks

FCA

On a side note, had anyone gotten a ship notification from Ready made RC
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 07:05 PM
I'm slow but I'm expensive
Ken Lilja's Avatar
United States, GA, Snellville
Joined Nov 2003
571 Posts
No custom connectors required. The supplied harness plugs into the appropriate channels in the receiver with standard 3 pin servo leads (rudder, aileron, elevator, gain, mode and aux as appropriate to your plane) The other end is a single 8 pin plug that plugs into the Guardian. I just need a longer reach than the stock harness. I can use regular servo lead extensions between the harness and the receiver or could make up an extension between the harness and the Guardian. That would need to have the correct type of connector. I guess I will just splice in the extra length of wire to the stock harness.
Ken

Quote:
Originally Posted by FLAME747 View Post
So you guys have to make custom connectors in order for the guardian to work properly

I don't understand the need for these "special harness" you guys are referring to

Thanks

FCA

On a side note, had anyone gotten a ship notification from Ready made RC
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
Are you stating that you can not get the Gaurdian 2D/3Dto move the servos from netural (centered) to CW and CCW positions even with the POTS turned to their extremes?
With the pot gains at their max positions for my servos ( rud & elev reversed but ail normal), I get little or no movement from the rud & ail when in either 2D or 3D modes & I have set it up for level condition by toggling the Mod/Config switch on my TX & I move the model by hand from this level condition; I get some movement of the elev but less than I would expect to be able to restore the model to the level condition. I'm judging this to some extent by what I observed on the ET demo video on their web site, which I appreciate both involved more of a 3D type A/C, & also may have been made more exaggerated for demo purposes.

I just hooked up with friend with a PC & he is going to download the ET software so I will try next to set up my 2 stab units that way & then reinstall in the FunCub to see how they work. Thanks for the help & I'll also take your hint into the mix of things.

Jed
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 08:14 PM
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everydayflyer's Avatar
Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Quote:
So you guys have to make custom connectors in order for the guardian to work properly
Well the OP with the extension question stated that his receiver was far behing the CG thus he wanted extensions so Guardian can go on the CG as suggested.

Those who read my post way back on Guardian in my Min Gremlin may remember that I mounted it way behind the CG ( aprox. 5") and it worked fine there.


Quote:
Servo extension leads might be a little expensive (unless I make them myself
I pay $2 each for 3"-12" servo extension, very good quality ones at that.

Can n ot find bookmark for my normal supplier but these are fairly inexpensive and good quality

http://www.3dhobbyshop.com/Servo-Extensions_c_292.html

Charles
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 08:21 PM
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As eluded to, don't be over critical about gyro being mounted on the CG. If the airplane were to vibrate and the center of rotation of the vibration were to be at the CG, then maybe it would be more significant but it does not really happen like that. Helicopters never mount on the CG and they do just fine. I typically mount my gyros where it is convenient. A more critical or significant issue is making sure it's on plane with the horizontal stab and straight with all axis. I've seen people say it is best on the CG but I've never seen that it makes any significant difference. Mount the gyro 3" from CG and if the plane were to rotate 90 degrees, so does the gyro.
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Melnic View Post
As eluded to, don't be over critical about gyro being mounted on the CG. If the airplane were to vibrate and the center of rotation of the vibration were to be at the CG, then maybe it would be more significant but it does not really happen like that. Helicopters never mount on the CG and they do just fine. I typically mount my gyros where it is convenient. A more critical or significant issue is making sure it's on plane with the horizontal stab and straight with all axis. I've seen people say it is best on the CG but I've never seen that it makes any significant difference. Mount the gyro 3" from CG and if the plane were to rotate 90 degrees, so does the gyro.
I agree with you - although it is recommended, my guardian was never on the c of g of any of the planes I tested it on. So as long as its close it's good enough

Al
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedorme View Post
With the pot gains at their max positions for my servos ( rud & elev reversed but ail normal), I get little or no movement from the rud & ail when in either 2D or 3D modes & I have set it up for level condition by toggling the Mod/Config switch on my TX & I move the model by hand from this level condition; I get some movement of the elev but less than I would expect to be able to restore the model to the level condition. I'm judging this to some extent by what I observed on the ET demo video on their web site, which I appreciate both involved more of a 3D type A/C, & also may have been made more exaggerated for demo purposes.

I just hooked up with friend with a PC & he is going to download the ET software so I will try next to set up my 2 stab units that way & then reinstall in the FunCub to see how they work. Thanks for the help & I'll also take your hint into the mix of things.

Jed
I have a similar issue, but with the rudder and elevator. The ailerons move quite a bit, but I can barely see the rudder and elevator move when I move the plane around by hand.
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 11:03 PM
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Reset Trims?

Should I reset the trims settings on my DX7 transmitter to neutral? The Guardian instructions seemed to state this, but I am a little confused about it.
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melnic View Post
As eluded to, don't be over critical about gyro being mounted on the CG. If the airplane were to vibrate and the center of rotation of the vibration were to be at the CG, then maybe it would be more significant but it does not really happen like that. Helicopters never mount on the CG and they do just fine. I typically mount my gyros where it is convenient. A more critical or significant issue is making sure it's on plane with the horizontal stab and straight with all axis. I've seen people say it is best on the CG but I've never seen that it makes any significant difference. Mount the gyro 3" from CG and if the plane were to rotate 90 degrees, so does the gyro.
Yes, it's true that the rate gyros don't care about being on the CG. Angular rate is angular rate, whether you measure it at the CG or in the nose, tail, or a wing tip.

I think the concern is for the accelerometers. When you rotate about the CG the accelerometers feel no change. But if you roll an airplane with a normal force accelerometer at the wing tip, of instance, the accelerometer will feel the rolling acceleration and deceleration and think the whole airplane is increasing or decreasing G's.

Dick
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Old Jul 10, 2012, 12:40 AM
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Berkley, MI
Joined Dec 2009
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Here's an interesting experiment - If you have a UMX Beast 3D or any of the smaller AS3X planes, rotate it +-30 deg (the more deg the better) in the pitch axis back and forth and at the CG. Take note of how reactive the elevator is in response. Now take the plane by the nose and hold it at arms length, and this time pivot your arm at the shoulder in the pitch axis of the plane. Make sure you hold the plane rigid - don't pivot your elbows, wrists, or fingers but just your shoulder.

You'll notice that the elevator will become less responsive and in fact may not even move. If the AS3X had gain adjustment you would be able to increase the gain to compensate. What's happening is simple - the AS3X see's less of a rotational motion about it's gyro(s), and instead experiences more of an arc.

If you have a big plane and you mount it far down the tail, you'll run the risk of running out of gain.

You can probably perform the same experiment on the Guardian before it is mounted.
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Old Jul 10, 2012, 12:54 AM
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United States, CA, Sebastopol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
Here's an interesting experiment - If you have a UMX Beast 3D or any of the smaller AS3X planes, rotate it +-30 deg (the more deg the better) in the pitch axis back and forth and at the CG. Take note of how reactive the elevator is in response. Now take the plane by the nose and hold it at arms length, and this time pivot your arm at the shoulder in the pitch axis of the plane. Make sure you hold the plane rigid - don't pivot your elbows, wrists, or fingers but just your shoulder.

You'll notice that the elevator will become less responsive and in fact may not even move. If the AS3X had gain adjustment you would be able to increase the gain to compensate. What's happening is simple - the AS3X see's less of a rotational motion about it's gyro(s), and instead experiences more of an arc.

If you have a big plane and you mount it far down the tail, you'll run the risk of running out of gain.

You can probably perform the same experiment on the Guardian before it is mounted.
This is a common misconception. If you can manage to wave your stiff outstretched arm through the same +-30 degree arc as you accomplish with just your hand and at the same speed you will get the same deflection response from a gyro system. Gyros respond to angular acceleration and the angular acceleration is the same everywhere on a rigid body.

EDIT: Of course, if you are using accelerometers, it's a different story. But the AS3X used in your example doesn't have any.
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Old Jul 10, 2012, 01:39 AM
Your customer
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Berkley, MI
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post
This is a common misconception. If you can manage to wave your stiff outstretched arm through the same +-30 degree arc as you accomplish with just your hand and at the same speed you will get the same deflection response from a gyro system. Gyros respond to angular acceleration and the angular acceleration is the same everywhere on a rigid body.

EDIT: Of course, if you are using accelerometers, it's a different story. But the AS3X used in your example doesn't have any.
Can you provide us some numbers. That would be cool and it would help me better understand.

Here's some stuff I found for reference:

http://www.siliconsensing.com/technology

http://sensorwiki.org/doku.php/sensors/gyroscope

https://sites.google.com/site/mkokto...nd-calibration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=dn9O7adrO_M

Shock and Vibration Rejection of MEMS Gyroscopes (1 min 38 sec)

How It Works -The Vibrating Gyro- (Science And Stuff) (2 min 1 sec)

Introduction to MEMS "Micro-Electro-Mechanical System" (8 min 59 sec)

Sensor Fusion on Android Devices: A Revolution in Motion Processing (46 min 27 sec) Note: Start at 8:40. He begins to talk about Sensors - Accelerometers, Gyros, Compass...etc..., and then how you can use them together to obtain better motion detection. This is a real good presentation. In regards to software, "Sensor Fusion" is one key element that seperates the good from the bad in these stabilization devices we are using.

coriolis effect (2-11) (2 min 12 sec) The gyro sensors used in our hobby utilize the Coriolis effect to detect motion about an axis. If I've understood it correctly and as applied to a mems gyro, the center of the merry-go-around represents the center of the gyro sensor, and the ball represents the vibrating "proof-mass". I'll ask around a bit to confirm this though. So, what happens when the rotating merry-go-around is made to travel about an arc instead of rotating about its axis?

If you have an android based smartphone, you can download programs such as, "Sensor Meter" (free), "Sensor Insider" (not free, but works much better), and Android Sensor Box (free and an excellent app that tells you what sensors you have). Some of these allow you to graph in real time the response of the sensors in your smartphone (gyro's, accelerometers, magnometer, gps...etc...). Doing so will give you a glimpse of how these sensors work.

http://androidforums.com/android-lou...ids-gyros.html

Here's a neat video, but is his explanation enough to satisfy our attempt to understand?
RC Gyro Positioning Demonstration (5 min 51 sec)
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Old Jul 10, 2012, 09:39 AM
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Great White North
Joined Jun 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott216 View Post
Should I reset the trims settings on my DX7 transmitter to neutral? The Guardian instructions seemed to state this, but I am a little confused about it.
Once you have flown and trimmed the plane with guardian installed and turned off, land and then perform the guardian reset trim gesture . You don't reset trims in your radio

Al
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