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Old Jul 06, 2012, 12:55 AM
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Great White North
Joined Jun 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flying-llama View Post
Yes, I remember your positive flight report and I am not disputing that or that the Guardian can work well on a 3 channel wing.
I am just trying to say that on a 3 channel plane, just as the pilot cannot control the 3 axes independently, the Guardian cannot also. This is due to the lack of flight control surfaces, not due to a limitation of the Guardian.
For example, with a 3 channel elevon plane (no rudder), it will be hard for the Guardian (or pilot) to do a flat turn as without a rudder channel, it will be hard to turn if the Guardian (or pilot) keeps the wings flat/level.
Yes - I agree with your summary. For example on my funjet clearly if I get the plane in "knife edge" either on my own or with guardian in 3d mode, there is no rudder so the plane will quickly loose altitude in knife edge and pile it in unless you level out. My f27q stryker on the other hand has the rudder (albeit not very effective) so most 3d orientations can be held by the guardian within the aerodynamic limitations of that airframe

So basically no rudder = no 3d

Al
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 12:58 AM
Team JetiUSA
pvogel's Avatar
Santa Clara, CA
Joined Nov 2008
1,003 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobandris View Post
Hey Bill and fellow users,

Just received it today, and with the help of the manual and this RCGroups thread, it installed fairly easily. I set it up in a Tribute 3DX with dual aileron servos using a Spektrum DX8. Primary aileron is the right-wing driven by channel 2. Secondary aileron is the left-wing driven by channel 6. It all went together pretty quickly and all surfaces are responding to stick inputs correctly and the surfaces are all going in the right directions in response to disturbances.

I have two problems/questions. First, the ch 2 aileron responds to stick inputs with deflections 3-times greater than ch 6. The same goes for its response to external disturbances that it is trying to correct for. Second, the rudder responds to stick commands as expected, but its response to induced yaw is almost imperceptible. I guess what I am trying to express is that gyro response to pitch and to roll perturbations is as expected but not symmetrical for ailerons, while response to yaw is miniscule.

Thanks for your patience and guidance,
Bob
Hi Bob,

Ailerons -- I had that problem too -- couple of things:
1. Make sure you don't have the guardian configured for elevon or flaperon mixing.
2. Go to the servo setup screen and configure custom throws for ail and aux

Rudder -- In 2D mode the corrections are very subtle. In 3D mode they'll be much more obvious, that's actually true of all the surfaces, you should also check your gain setting both on the guardian itself and on your radio gain channel.

Peter+
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 02:08 AM
Sopwith Camel's Cousin
Between my tx and crashed aircraft
Joined Mar 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pvogel View Post
Installed mine in my 89" Slick yesterday and got a chance to take it out for a few flights today in winds ranging from 10-20+ mph. WOW. ...

I was a little surprised that it allowed the nose to drop (in 3D mode) when doing an 8 point roll. I expected a roll only input would result in appropriate rudder/elevator inputs to hold the nose up (there was plenty of speed). Any ideas?

Peter+
One question: was your 3D mode in rate or heading-hold sub-mode?
In rate sub-mode, I could seen some nose drop in rate, I would be more surprised in heading-hold
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 06:30 AM
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United States, NE, Omaha
Joined Nov 2011
6 Posts
Got 2 units in the mail yesterday. I ordered them a month or so apart. Eagle Tree combined the shipping into one package and refunded me half the shipping cost. That's good customer service.

I've only flown the Guardian for four flights and I have a couple of questions. I installed it in an FMS 1100mm Hellcat. First flight the aileron gain was way too high and I got wing waggle. I turned the gain down and it smoothed out nicely. There was about a 10mph wind. It seems to me that in 2D mode when I let it go into wing-leveling mode, it still is pointed slightly toward the ground. If I add more up trim will this fix it?

Secondly, I'm using an Airtronics RDS 8000 radio. It has no sliders or knobs. I plugged the gain into a 2-position switch channel. This seems to simply turn the unit on or off. Is there any way to program the Guardian so that when I flip the switch it changes the gain to a different pre-set amount? The 3-position switch works for changing the mode, and the middle position is off. Should I just disconnect the gain lead?

Jeff
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 08:33 AM
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United States, AR, Benton
Joined Jul 2007
50 Posts
Expecting Guardian

I pre-ordered 4 Guardian 2D/3D and have received shipping notice (hurrah).
My intention is to use a H9 Pulse XT 40 as initial test bed for four channel, but I also want to use on some more "unstable" airframes. I have an ExtremeFlight Outlaw and a Phase 3 Squall with thrust vectoring. Both of these planes have elevon control for pitch/roll and rudder for yaw. Any suggestions from betas on setup and programming? I will use my Futaba FG8S and 6 channel rx's on all of these planes.
I am looking for smoother control on these and a little "peace of mind" on my other EDFs. Just got EFlite Mig 15 with AS3X, should be interesting to compare.
Jim
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 08:47 AM
24 yrs. of Aircraft flying
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United States, GA, Rockmart
Joined Oct 2004
5,813 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by flying-llama View Post
Yes, I remember your positive flight report and I am not disputing that or that the Guardian can work well on a 3 channel wing.
I am just trying to say that on a 3 channel plane, just as the pilot cannot control the 3 axes independently, the Guardian cannot also. This is due to the lack of flight control surfaces, not due to a limitation of the Guardian.
For example, with a 3 channel elevon plane (no rudder), it will be hard for the Guardian (or pilot) to do a flat turn as without a rudder channel, it will be hard to turn if the Guardian (or pilot) keeps the wings flat/level.
It can't make a plane be " magic i mean it can only do what the plane is capable of doing, most 3 channel planes Wings won't hover. I used to hover my stryker a lil but not really, flying wings are to fly fast and turn. The guardian will help keep level flight and in 2d mode won't let it roll over or be put in a dive w/o auto correction

if you want it for launching your wings it will work great, just point the plane where you want it to go ( as long the plane has enough power) put in 3D mode and release it. it will fly on a 45degree or whatever angle you point it at until you touch something.
I wish i would have had one when i had my strkyer. I had a few bad launches with it.
I plan to put one in a 4 channel flying object lol, its a Foamanator with homemade rudder i want to see how well it can make it hover and keep it stable. its going in my Aj slick later but this be a good test plane to play with
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 09:26 AM
I'm slow but I'm expensive
Ken Lilja's Avatar
United States, GA, Snellville
Joined Nov 2003
576 Posts
Gain control clarification

Scenario: All 3 individual gain controls are set to 40%. If I map the master gain to a slider, center would be 40% total gain, one end would be 0% gain and the other end would be 80% total gain. In other words if your initial setting is 40% the master gain allows running the gain +- of 40% to find the sweet spot.
Is this correct?
Received mine yesterday.
Ken
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 09:59 AM
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Joined Feb 2007
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can you plug in 2 elevator servos into the guarduian, and just run the aileron servos to the RX? the instructions only mention aux port to be used for ailerons....
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 11:16 AM
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Great White North
Joined Jun 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weezle View Post
can you plug in 2 elevator servos into the guarduian, and just run the aileron servos to the RX? the instructions only mention aux port to be used for ailerons....
I presume you mean your model has a servo for each side (half) of the elevator ?

If so I think the simplist solution would be to use a y cable and either mechanically ensure each half of the elevator moves correctly or use digital servos that can be programmed to change their direction such that each half moves together. I don't think ET has set up the aux for a elevator half - but I could be wrong.

Al
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 11:23 AM
Registered User
Great White North
Joined Jun 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lilja View Post
Scenario: All 3 individual gain controls are set to 40%. If I map the master gain to a slider, center would be 40% total gain, one end would be 0% gain and the other end would be 80% total gain. In other words if your initial setting is 40% the master gain allows running the gain +- of 40% to find the sweet spot.
Is this correct?
Received mine yesterday.
Ken
Yes That's pretty close

Actually think of the slider as a multiplier / divider of the knob setting.

1x the knob gain occurs somewhere between 40-50% of slider travel - so pretty close to centre
Above that level the knob gains are multiplied by an increasing amount, and below that near centre level the knob gains are divided by an increasing amount

Keep in mind that with the slider fully down the guardian is off

Al
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 01:21 PM
LSF 004 - AMA 5055
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United States, CA, Saratoga
Joined Dec 2000
589 Posts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aero65 View Post
Hi Bob
Awesome, when you get the throws sorted out you will love it.

I have some possible things to check / thoughts on your issues.

Do you have custom servo limits on? If you don't these could also help with a really funny setup, when I turned mine on it appeared to re-scale the servo responses to the limits set on the servos. I have to confirm this but It appeared to do that.

If you have the flaperon input unmixed checked the Guardian will do internal flaperon mixing between aileron and the aux input. If you already have it programed into your transmitter you might be getting some weird output. However the gyro response should not be affected just the throws.

What mode are you in? 3D without direct rate and without heading hold should give you just rate gyro responses which should be even.

Does the rudder servo have its control rod all the way on the inside hole on the servo arm? For example if your ailerons throw were cut down a lot using travel volume, and the rudder was not. You would have more response on the aileron due to the Guardian outputting similar angular corrections on the servo arm, however due to the differences in the length of the servo arms / control horns you would have different appearing corrections. (This could be affecting the rudder and aux outputs?)

If you are in 2D with auto turn coordination on the rudder will turn in the direction of the roll and could be messing with the outcome.

I hope these suggestions help, just some thoughts after I have installed mine.
Many Thanks, Aero65,

This is what I just sent to EagleTree's Support:

Now, 15 hours later, I have had time to refine my findings. THE MOST IMPORTANT thing is that the "AUX" output to the servo is NOT there. I switched servos around and was able to confirm that I'm not getting any output from the Guardian's AUX channel. Not even in the center or OFF mode. Can I fix this?
A secondary problem is the 2D or 3D corrections that the Guardian supplies through the Guardian's RUD out channel is very, very small. Summary, it's useless. Can I fix this, too?

Bob

BTW, I am using a DX8, setup for Dual Aileron. Works great with NO Guardian at all.
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 01:48 PM
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USA, KS, Derby
Joined Mar 2003
1,474 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobandris View Post
Hey Bill and fellow users,

Just received it today, and with the help of the manual and this RCGroups thread, it installed fairly easily. I set it up in a Tribute 3DX with dual aileron servos using a Spektrum DX8. Primary aileron is the right-wing driven by channel 2. Secondary aileron is the left-wing driven by channel 6. It all went together pretty quickly and all surfaces are responding to stick inputs correctly and the surfaces are all going in the right directions in response to disturbances.

I have two problems/questions. First, the ch 2 aileron responds to stick inputs with deflections 3-times greater than ch 6. The same goes for its response to external disturbances that it is trying to correct for. Second, the rudder responds to stick commands as expected, but its response to induced yaw is almost imperceptible. I guess what I am trying to express is that gyro response to pitch and to roll perturbations is as expected but not symmetrical for ailerons, while response to yaw is miniscule.

Thanks for your patience and guidance,
Bob
For the dual aileron, if you have a 2nd Ail channel from your Rx, make sure to disable the 'Onboard Dual Aileron Mixing' while you have the Aux cable between the Guardian and Rx connected.

On the other hand, if you want Guardian to do the Dual Aileron mixing for you (Onboard Dual Aileron Mixing enabled), then you need to disconnect the Aux cable between the Guardian and the Rx.

As for the Rudder gyro compensation, I too found it very little but my experience is that is more than enough when I had it installed in my 3DHS 41-in Edge. I even had to lower the gain in once instance.

Hope the info helps.
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 02:15 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,038 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lilja View Post
Scenario: All 3 individual gain controls are set to 40%. If I map the master gain to a slider, center would be 40% total gain, one end would be 0% gain and the other end would be 80% total gain. In other words if your initial setting is 40% the master gain allows running the gain +- of 40% to find the sweet spot.
Is this correct?
Received mine yesterday.
Ken
I'm pretty sure there was a post a while ago that stated the gain was a direct proportion from min-max. In your scenario, the gain would go from 0 at the low end to 40 at the high end. This would make sense. If it works as you described and you had the pots set for 100, max gain would then be 200% and that doesn't seem reasonable.

In practice it doesn't seem like it makes much difference which way it works. The master gain moves from 0 at one end to max at the other end, with max being determined by the pot settings. You probably want to do some test flights and adjust the pots so that when the master is at max, the gain is the highest you would ever want to use, but no higher. Then you can leave the pots alone and the master will allow a full range of adjustment in flight.

Edit:
It may be more accurate to say that the master goes from min-max where max is determined by the pots and your upper endpoint setting and min is determined by the pots and your lower endpoint setting. You could set it up, for instance, to have full travel on the gain knob go from 20%-70% with zero gain not reachable except by setting the mode channel to "off".
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 02:31 PM
Static Model Collector LOL
Katy, TX
Joined Dec 2009
1,448 Posts
If anyone has the set up an a flying wing with elevons only
Please post how you connected it to the guardian

Thanks,

FCA
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 02:39 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,038 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Refrik View Post
Secondly, I'm using an Airtronics RDS 8000 radio. It has no sliders or knobs. I plugged the gain into a 2-position switch channel. This seems to simply turn the unit on or off. Is there any way to program the Guardian so that when I flip the switch it changes the gain to a different pre-set amount? The 3-position switch works for changing the mode, and the middle position is off. Should I just disconnect the gain lead?

Jeff
Adjust the endpoints on the gain channel. You should be able to set any two gain levels you want, and since you have an "off" on the 3 pos switch, you don't need a 0 gain.

If using a 3 position switch for the master gain, you may need to tweak the subtrim to get the 3 gains you want.
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